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Some questions about Coulson. (self.Avengers)

submitted ago by okay_jpg

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Everyone seems to be speculating whether or not Coulson is dead. It seems to be pretty obvious that he'll come back as Vision.

But here's my question; why are people even unsure about Coulson being dead?

After he gets stabbed by Loki, and both Tony and he are in the STARK tower, after Tony is throw from the window and suits up mid-air and flies back up.. before he hits Loki he says "And you pissed one other person off. His name is Phil." Would this not assume he's still alive, and Tony knows it?

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[–]little_gnora 16 points17 points ago

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I don't think it's obvious AT ALL. In fact, I feel the entire concept of him coming back as Vision stupid as hell.

It would undermine the entire point of his "death" if he comes back. You can't unite a team with "he's dead" only to pull the rug out from under them going "lol not really, he's one of you". It doesn't work that way.

Coulson was a normal human playing with the big boys and sadly he died in the process. He was a wake-up call to our heroes, a slap in the face if you will. Coulson is supposed to be a reminder that there are other people involved in this, other lives at risk, and the price is a high one so the people who can do something about it will stop, think, put their egos aside, and work together untied by a common cause.

You make him a superhero and that goes out the window.

[–]Ahesterd 5 points6 points ago

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That's all true, but remember we're dealing with a comic book universe here. Most comic book fans are used to death being relatively meaningless.

As far as him coming back as Vision - one of the theories I've heard that sounded plausible wasn't that it was SHIELD that did it, but Tony Stark himself, which takes some of the bite out of the rug-pull.

I agree, however, that it's entirely unlikely, and it's 100% fan speculation. There's been nothing implied or indicated in any of the movies or by any of the Marvel bigwigs. And frankly I think the Vision would be difficult to pull off in a live action film. He's just so... different.

[–]little_gnora 2 points3 points ago

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We are dealing with a comic book universe, yes. However, these movies are geared more toward the general public. That is the big appeal of how the franchise is going right now. You don't have to be a comic book fan to understand and enjoy these films. That is what makes them such box-office titans, everyone can watch and enjoy them. (Though there are easter eggs in there for the fans.)

(And coincidentally, this is the reason why films like Watchmen don't do as well in theaters. They're designed to comic fans, not the general population.)

The general public won't understand a character like Vision, and unless it's extremely well written -which it very well could be- they won't appreciate the play of emotions on Coulson's death.

I just feel from a character and plot standpoint his death was necessary and irreversible.

[–]Ahesterd 2 points3 points ago

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I agree pretty much throughout. Vision would be EXTREMELY hard to sell to a mainstream theatrical audience, and though Coulson fits the bill for transformation to Vision, it doesn't mean that they're going to go that route.

[–]Brouje 2 points3 points ago

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I think the vision could work in an action film (I mean they did have kitty pride in one of the x-men movies, so it's not like the audience would be confused by phasing or anything). But I would like to point out the fact that, while the most recent version of Vision was rebuilt by Tony Stark, Vision was originally created by Ultron to destroy the Avengers. That being said, I would not be surprised if they overlooked that small detail and put him in the movie anyway (I mean they are putting in the Iron Patriot into the new Iron Man movie without being able to legally even mention Norman Osborn). Also they did drop some pretty serious hints in the Avengers that Coleson was Vision (like the part where they mentioned he was dating a cellist; read Wanda Maximov)....I just realized how much of a nerdy rant this is, so im gonna leave now.

[–]Ahesterd 1 point2 points ago

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That's true, I forgot about the Cellist thing.

And Vision's difficulty would come more from his overall character than from his power. He'd need a good amount of development, and I just don't see them giving him his own movie any time soon. The biggest stepping stone would be the Ultron thing, yeah, but they've been loose with the origins of a lot of characters. I mean, Jane Foster is very much not a paramedic, and the only thing that made the Chitauri the Chitauri is the fact that they were called that in the movie itself.

[–]Brouje 1 point2 points ago

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actually, the whole "socially inept, but pure-hearted" thing has been pretty popular lately. I mean look at like every other tv show on air right now, there are literally dozens of characters like Abed from Community who are overly-logical and almost robotic, but still able to appeal to audiences. But yeah, they would never give him his own movie hahaha.

[–]Innosin 0 points1 point ago

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What? I keep seeing this "proof of Vision" thing where it's stated that Wanda Maximoff is a cellist. Everyone seems to be acting as if this is an obvious tie to her, but does anyone have any proof that Scarlet Witch plays the cello?

[–]little_gnora 1 point2 points ago

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I don't think using the X-Men movies is the best comparison? Fox pretty much butchered X-Men and left audiences disappointed and disoriented. (Third movie especially, where Kitty Pryde has a major role, WTF was that shit?)

I also feel the Cellist thing was more of an easter egg for the fans who were paying attention (she's mentioned in two other films), and not actually foreshadowing.

[–]Brouje 1 point2 points ago

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My point about the x-men movies was just that the idea of phasing as a power makes sense. Like no one was going "what the fuck did she just do?" (they WERE busy going "what the fuck did fox just do?"). Also, there were several easter eggs that led some people to believe the whole Vision theory (I honestly can't remember them at the moment, but there were a few).

[–]tiffanydisasterxoxo -1 points0 points ago

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But he was signed for more Avengers movies. I heard he signed up for 6 movies, but has only been in 4 so far (Thor, Iron man, Iron Man 2, and Avengers). I don't remember from who, but someone posted a link on this subreddit along time ago.

[–]little_gnora 1 point2 points ago

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Well, he's supposed to be in Nick Fury which is set before The Avengers, so that takes care of one.

And I would like to point out that just becuase he is signed to do a movie it doesn't mean he'll have a major role. I read somewhere that Samuel L. Jackson was signed for a total of 8 of these films and The Avengers is the only film in which he's had more than about 6 minuets of screen time.

[–]tiffanydisasterxoxo 0 points1 point ago

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Well I'm hopeful that it means more, I'm a fan of Coulson and in these movies anything can happen.

[–]little_gnora 1 point2 points ago

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I like Coulson too.

I would just hate to see his death trivialized in this manner.

[–]tiffanydisasterxoxo 0 points1 point ago

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I think maybe they'd feel betrayed at first then come around to having such a great man back. I don't know how they'd do it, emotionally speaking, but it is a possibility.

[–]Avengerassemble64 7 points8 points ago

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An interesting point, but if you recall, Tony makes the lines about "He made it personal." and such. If Tony KNEW Coulson was alive, he wouldn't have been quite as motivated. Hes probably alive, and only a few from Shield Know of it.

[–]watsoned 2 points3 points ago

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Most of the speculation comes from the fact although we saw him lose consciousness, at least, we never actually saw the paramedics 'call it', like Fury said. The camera panned up with him as he stood and then cut to Cap'n and Stark. Then there's the fact that Fury lied to them about the location of the cards (saying they were in his jacket and not in his locker) because they needed the 'push'. It just makes you wonder what all else Fury is willing to lie about, and I wouldn't personally put it past him to lie about the death of someone all of our heroes knew to get them to come together and defeat the big bad.

That being said, my little fan heart hopes that somehow he's still alive (I tend to pick 'odd' favourites, and Coulson has been one of mine since Iron Man), but I wouldn't be surprised if he was actually dead as they come. For a comic book universe, at least.

[–]Avengerassemble64 3 points4 points ago

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I think that it's all fan speculation hes still alive. I personally agree and think he'll return as Vision. He had large role in the prequels so obviously he is loved by all. Killing him DID help bring our heroes together, but it leaves an empty spot... I do believe he will back because of how the movie ended. With Thanos most likely being our next villain, we will need more powerful heroes along with the six we already have gotten. That is why Dr. Strange will be introduced, in my opinion... (Not a dr strange fan btw)

[–]okay_jpg[S] 1 point2 points ago

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But what about Tony saying "You pissed someone else off. His name IS Phil." Not "His name WAS Phil" I don't know, seems to me like it wouldn't be written that way if it wasn't to be implied that he's still alive, you know?

[–]Kuibata 8 points9 points ago

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I take that as more like Tony is saying "he's still with us, you can't really kill what he means to us." more than "he's still alive". If he is still alive, I don't think Tony is privilege to that info yet.

[–]Jazzun 0 points1 point ago

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I read an article somewhere where Coulson's actor confirmed he wasn't coming back as Vision. But I don't know where that is and do not care enough to find it. Just google interviews with his name

[–]949paintball 0 points1 point ago

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He didn't confirm he wasn't coming back, he just said that he would not want to be Vision if he did...

[–]cptsnydezombie 1 point2 points ago

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The other person Loki pissed off isn't Coulson, it's Stark. By saying "His name was Phil", Stark is saying that Loki killing him is directly responsible for pissing Stark off.

[–]h_zee13 1 point2 points ago

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Where does it say that he will be back as Vision? What part of the movie or story points to the fact that he might be back as Vision?

[–]okay_jpg[S] 0 points1 point ago

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Just a lot of speculation

[–]h_zee13 1 point2 points ago

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Ah k. Well I hope he comes back cuz I really liked his character

[–]mrawls 0 points1 point ago

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people liked superman too. but bringing him back after 'killing' him was a joke and he should have stayed dead.

[–]Chuckaluffagus 0 points1 point ago

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Fuck that. Ultron created the Vision. If anyone else does it, I'mma be PISSED.

[–]puglovers 0 points1 point ago

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Wait, can you explain to me how exactly Coulson'll come back as Vision?