all 147 comments

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points ago

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It's been over 7 years since I stopped believing in all myths, but I still remember it well.

Do you REALLY not believe in any myths? I doubt that.

Here you have shown you still believe in the myth of the Great Evil of Religion. Myths aren't limited to being held by theists, y'know.

Ones like, how does prayer work,

How do you think it's supposed to "work"? I'm mystified when prayer is treated in this way, like it's supposed to be a magical incantation to bring yourself gifts and theists aren't clever enough to notice that it doesn't work.

why is the universe cruel to the innocent,

Do you anthropomorphize the universe?

Life happens. Sometimes it's enjoyable, sometimes it hurts. Why does there need to be anything more to it than that? You said you don't believe in any myths, right?

And, of course, under a scientism-based worldview, there is no such thing as "innocence" or "guilt," we are all merely collections of particle interactions acting with only the illusion of intelligence and intent!

or why doesn't god just simply answer back?

Do you think he's some sort of father figure who should come down and have a chat? What's "God" to you?

These are questions that require not just faith, but a disregard for logic,

I haven't seen you point out anything that was illogical besides your misconceptions.

When I became an atheist, the biggest impact that it had on my life was that I was no longer concerned with just myself and my judgment. I was concerned about everyone else and how they were living their lives based on the various stories they were told as a child. I began to think in much broader terms, but, most notably, I started to see the terrible decisions that society was making because they were trying to protect their beliefs.

Religion and belief is so overpowering that consequence and prosperity are thrown out to make way for individual interpretation and not unbiased pros and cons: stem cell research on non-fetal cells, teaching the book of genesis in public schools as a scientific hypothesis of the universe's existence/contrasting the theory of evolution, and even extreme examples like witch-burnings in Africa and children being denied medical treatment over prayer.

It just sounds like you were converted into a secular religion to me, one based around stories of all the great "evils" and "crimes" a magical force called "religion" committed today.

The fact is, there isn't any easy "explanation" for why people do what they do. All this is is a story. I could tell you plenty of stories, too, and they'd clash greatly with yours.

Stop being so judgmental.

[–]idwolfatheist|antitheist[S] 2 points3 points ago*

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Do you REALLY not believe in any myths? I doubt that.

Uh... try me. I don't believe in any myths. Feel free to explore your doubt instead of just assuming it upon me. The "Great Evil of Religion" is not a myth. The Spanish Inquisitions, the Crusades, World War 2, the Westboro Baptist Church, these are all very bad things. I wont get into the semantics of "evil" with you though.

How do you think it's supposed to "work"? I'm mystified when prayer is treated in this way, like it's supposed to be a magical incantation to bring yourself gifts and theists aren't clever enough to notice that it doesn't work.

With no explanation that resides in physics, I guess you want me to just guess how prayer works... okay. Well maybe god built in wifi and we transmit our thoughts, but only on his network. I'm joking! It doesn't work at all. Allow me to explain.

Let's say you pray to a toaster instead of a god, and you explain to the toaster that you are completely out of money or your child wont get the leukemia treatment she desperately needs! Three things will happen:

  • The toaster grants your prayer, and you instantly receive the money through a family member, friend, or a money drive... something based in reality. Praise be the toaster! It has delivered you a miracle!

  • The toaster grants your prayer a lot later down the line, and you believe that it is still done by the toaster's will. In fact, the toaster made you wait, so he was testing your faith. Praise be the toaster! It's a miracle!

  • The toaster doesn't deliver on your prayer, and the little baby girl dies. The toaster works in mysterious ways. Praise be the toaster...

This is how prayer works. If you know about statistical analysis and basic logic, you could figure this out on your own.

Do you anthropomorphize the universe?

Life happens. Sometimes it's enjoyable, sometimes it hurts. Why does there need to be anything more to it than that? You said you don't believe in any myths, right?

And, of course, under a scientism-based worldview, there is no such thing as "innocence" or "guilt," we are all merely collections of particle interactions acting with only the illusion of intelligence and intent!

It's pretty easy to understand the definition of innocence. It's a state of being prior to obtaining ill knowledge. Guilt is a physical reaction in the brain, much like all of our emotions. People can be without guilt, and doctors have even recognized extreme guilt as a symptom of problems with the nervous system. Emotions are controlled by our brain. I know first hand since I have to take hormone supplements to sustain a normal life. When I miss a dose, I get irritable, and it's not because my soul is changing colors. It's a chemical reaction, which is why mood-changing medicine for depression exists and works.

Do you think he's some sort of father figure who should come down and have a chat? What's "God" to you?

I'm an atheist. Gods do not exist. I've heard every natural definition and none of them have any evidence. How would it be possible for a supremely intelligent being to exist before life even exists? It complicates the question making it completely ridiculous and unnatural.

It just sounds like you were converted into a secular religion to me, one based around stories of all the great "evils" and "crimes" a magical force called "religion" committed today.

The fact is, there isn't any easy "explanation" for why people do what they do. All this is is a story. I could tell you plenty of stories, too, and they'd clash greatly with yours.

If atheism is a religion, then "off" is a TV channel. You think that I'm persecuting some wild theories and you're using hyperbole to exaggerate your claims, but if you're a christian, then you're the one who's pretending to eat and drink the flesh and blood of a schizophrenic Jew who had hallucinations and a very good speaking voice apparently. I guess they knew exactly how the world got here, and they wrote it down 2,000 years ago, before they even knew that the world was round, and that the Earth revolved around the sun. Yeah, but they're the ones to trust. The people who wrote the bible have a ton of credibility. I'm being sarcastic, in case you were wondering.

Stop being so judgmental.

By who's standards? Anything questioning your beliefs is judgmental? Considering what you've just said, I think you're a bit of a hypocrite. I've explained all of your complaints in a reasonable manner. I'm happy to answer any additional questions you have. I'm not a better person than you, nor do I believe that I am more capable than you. I've just been lucky enough learn all of the things necessary to let me come to this, my very own conclusion, naturally. If you're afraid that more education, through these conversations, can harm your beliefs, then you shouldn't be debating your religion.

[–]mrdrzeusanti-theist | masturbationist 1 point2 points ago

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Here you have shown you still believe in the myth of the Great Evil of Religion.

So let me get this straight. If a person thinks that religion on net does more harm than good, by definition they believe a myth? It's simply impossible that they could be right?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points ago

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Yes, it is a myth.

You know that "myth" doesn't mean "a belief that is wrong," right?

Though this is a correct use of the word, if you use that definition. "Religion" isn't even something that exists if you're an atheist. It's hardly more real than God himself. So how can "religion" be the blame for anything?

I could pick the idea apart in endless other ways. "Witch-burning"-type incidents occur in third world countries in the modern day without any influence from the Bible. Etc.

[–]thrikChristian|ex-atheist 4 points5 points ago

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy

Psychology is interesting, but it has no bearing on the truth of a philosophical claim.

[–]jbenunivantitheist evidentialist socialist WatchMod 1 point2 points ago

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It may help explain why people make certain claims.

[–]thrikChristian|ex-atheist 2 points3 points ago

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That is true, and I'm all for doing "internal interrogation". But to say that psychology alone is a good enough reason to think that God doesn't exist (as OP does) is irrational.

[–]idwolfatheist|antitheist[S] 1 point2 points ago

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You didn't answer anything I asked.

[–]thrikChristian|ex-atheist 2 points3 points ago

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I read everything you said, if that was your concern.

I disagreed with the principle of this topic.

You claimed religious belief is psychosomatic, and then asserted that worship is self-fulfilling.

I was challenging both of those assertions.

[–]idwolfatheist|antitheist[S] 1 point2 points ago

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There is no other evidence for your beliefs than your beliefs, which is self-contained in your head which is psychosomatic: "Of or relating to the interaction of mind and body." Such as the feeling you get when someone you love enters the room. The endorphins rush, and the inner core of your brain lights up, but your reaction isn't evidence that they exist.

This is /r/debatreligion, not disagree religion. If you don't have incite to the contrary then why are you even replying?


In an unrelated note, someone downvoted you, but it wasn't me. I want to promote conversations here, not hostility. :/ Sorry.

[–]thrikChristian|ex-atheist 1 point2 points ago

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There is no other evidence for your beliefs than your beliefs

And there it is again. Why do you assume that?

[–]idwolfatheist|antitheist[S] 1 point2 points ago

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Because you ask me "Why do you assume that?" instead of presenting your evidence.

[–]thrikChristian|ex-atheist 1 point2 points ago

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That's pretty bad reasoning.

You made the claim, you have to back it up.

[–]idwolfatheist|antitheist[S] 0 points1 point ago

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I didn't mean to claim that there is no evidence. It's that all evidence that has been shown has been debunked. I'm on sleep meds and I'm tired. Forgive the mistake, but the point of my statement was that most people tend to say that they feel god's presence, which is what I was trying to say is psychosomatic. Feel free to supply contrary or superior evidence.

[–]ifihadashotgunAtheistic Existentialist 0 points1 point ago

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Then you understand why personal experience should never be used to justify any truth claim to another person.

[–]thrikChristian|ex-atheist 1 point2 points ago

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Yes, I wouldn't use experience to justify that God exists to someone else.

Yet I think experience does matter, since I believe mine to be philosophically justified.

[–]ifihadashotgunAtheistic Existentialist 3 points4 points ago

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I would then ask how you differentiate between an objective personal experience and one that is a symptom of a psychosomatic illness?

[–]thrikChristian|ex-atheist 1 point2 points ago

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Absolutely. :)

This is my point... it all comes back to the question of God's existence. In other words, the realm of philosophy, not psychology.

[–]ifihadashotgunAtheistic Existentialist 2 points3 points ago

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So what you're saying is that you have no way to differentiate between the two?

I'm sorry, but this is not how you determine what you should believe in if you care whether or not your beliefs are true. This may go a long way towards making yourself feel good, but it has absolutely zero basis is reality.

[–]thrikChristian|ex-atheist 1 point2 points ago

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?

I spoke of philosophy, how else should one determine what truth is?

[–]ifihadashotgunAtheistic Existentialist 2 points3 points ago

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You take very basic things as axiomatic truths and then build from there using logically sound arguments reinforced by the scientific method.

I really hope you aren't going where I think you are (solipsism).

[–]thrikChristian|ex-atheist 0 points1 point ago

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I think we should decide where to have this conversation... answering in both places is quite annoying (at least it is to me).

I will include a response to your post here after your next reply in the other topic.

[–]DrPhillySecular Humanist | Quasi-Gnostic Atheist |Batmanist |WatchPickle 1 point2 points ago

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Would you do those of us observing the privilege of linking to the other conversation?

[–]namer98Orthodox Jew|תורה עם דרך ארץ|mod/r/Judaism | ★ 2 points3 points ago

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I do not think that in modern society, Judaism or its system has done harm to society. Jews have built hospitals, done fundraisers, and have generally been good civic members of society. So, if you want to say that certain groups of Christians in the bible belt have done harm to society, I might consider your statement to hold some validity. But to say all religions do harm, no.

[–]jbenunivantitheist evidentialist socialist WatchMod 1 point2 points ago

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Israel is an expression of Judaism, is it not? And I would say it's arguable that it has done harm to certain societies.

[–]namer98Orthodox Jew|תורה עם דרך ארץ|mod/r/Judaism | ★ 3 points4 points ago

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I am not a zionist, and not all Jews support Israel. Israel is not an expression of Judaism at all.

[–]idwolfatheist|antitheist[S] 4 points5 points ago

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Circumcisions come to mind. Although it does lesson the risk of infection, but that's not why the foreskin is removed now is it? If that was the case, there wouldn't be a giant party for it.

Other than that, all religions, regardless of their level of ferocity, throw fuel on the fire. If you believe you are right, then of course you don't believe that all the other religions are right too or you wouldn't just be Jewish, but I'm betting you didn't go down to the book store like I did and buy a bunch of different books on various religions. You are still believing in a god, which limits you. You are no longer allowed to accept other explanations for existence. The chance of a god-being existing before the universe even exists still begs the question, where did that being come from? You're still teaching your children to believe in a god that cannot be seen, through logical fallacies, illusions, and common coincidence: a miracle when something good happens or "he works in mysterious ways" when someone needs to be consoled.

The lavish churches and weekly donations could be spent to make half-way houses for battered women, or homeless shelters. I think the worst of all, is that you curse yourselves to live a life of shame and self-hatred. You can't just be a man living his life on earth. You have to be under the heal of judgment because this couldn't possibly be a world where cruel things happen with no repercussions.

A lot of what I said can be applied to many religions, which is why I addressed this to "theists" and not one religion. Have you ever asked yourself if what you believe is possible in the realm of science? Can it physically be possible for the things you believe to be true?

[–]ShamanSTKjewish 0 points1 point ago

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I'm sorry, I have to take this comment apart piece by piece. There's a lot of wrong here. I really don't want to offend, but I don't see a single valid point. Please read this with a positive tone because I'm trying my best to not come across as combative.

Circumcisions come to mind.

No harm other than definitional harm. There is no objective reason to believe there is any physical or psychological harm done other than simply saying a change is damage or saying that disagreeing with your parents is psychological harm. There is no way to attack circumcision and remain constant with parental rights.

You are no longer allowed to accept other explanations for existence.

Belief in the Jewish G-d gives deferential treatment to science. It allows for all explanations of creation other than magic. So long as it's logical, it's fine. It's not a limiting belief, but a liberating belief.

The chance of a god-being existing before the universe even exists still begs the question, where did that being come from?

Time is a part of the universe. It's called the space time continuum and it's what the world is built on. G-d created time, so G-d could have a beginning. The idea of a before and after require time, which G-d created and is not bound by. It's an illogical question. It sounds like words, but when you parse it, it's illogical gibberish. What changed before time? Change without change? Doesn't compute.

You're still teaching your children to believe in a god that cannot be seen, through logical fallacies, illusions, and common coincidence: a miracle when something good happens or "he works in mysterious ways" when someone needs to be consoled.

Wrong religion. Judaism is rational above all else, we do not believe G-d works in mysterious ways, and all his ways are of truth. I haven't seen any illogical fallacies and I have a standing bet against all atheists world wide to identify one that doesn't rest on a logical fallacy itself.

The lavish churches and weekly donations could be spent to make half-way houses for battered women, or homeless shelters.

Again, wrong religion. We believe that homeless in our community have an absolute right to two meals a day and a rough over their heads at night. We do not have an obligation to build a synagogue until other needs are met. In most smaller communities, shul is in the rabbi's basement.

I think the worst of all, is that you curse yourselves to live a life of shame and self-hatred. You can't just be a man living his life on earth. You have to be under the heal of judgment because this couldn't possibly be a world where cruel things happen with no repercussions.

Shame and self hatred? I think only Catholics do that. The self loathing Jew is a stereotype, but it's not a religious one. Shaming someone is one of the gravest offenses in Judaism. Self-hatred is actually forbidden. We are commanded to love ourselves because we are commanded to love others as ourselves. You can't love others until you love yourself. If you have done wrong, G-d has provided a way to atone. Make it better and promise yourself you won't do it again. It is not dealing with your issues that cause shame and self-hatred.

Have you ever asked yourself if what you believe is possible in the realm of science? Can it physically be possible for the things you believe to be true?

Halakha states that if science contradicts what we believe, what we believe is wrong. It is a sin to fool yourself that the world is different. This physical world represents the will of G-d and denying it is denying G-d. I'm sorry, but your polemic should be addressed to Christians instead of theists. Which is usually the case when atheists address theists. Most only have experience with Christianity, which I feel to be a strawman religion. I find it to be weak theology founded on paradoxes and inconsistencies. Attacking Christianity is not very persuasive to people who have rejected it.

[–]idwolfatheist|antitheist[S] 2 points3 points ago

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I'm sorry, I have to take this comment apart piece by piece.

It's /r/debatereligion. Debating is implied. :D Saying that what I have said is wrong remains to be seen. I'm not as educated in judaism as some of the other religions, so maybe I'll learn something as well. I usually just try to run everything through a logic filter and it works out nicely. We'll see how it goes.

No harm other than definitional harm. There is no objective reason to believe there is any physical or psychological harm done other than simply saying a change is damage or saying that disagreeing with your parents is psychological harm. There is no way to attack circumcision and remain constant with parental rights.

Doctors have discovered that babies suffer extreme pain and stress, they even stop crying sometimes because they are in so much pain that they go into shock. We don't remember this memory, but this leads to how hypocritically religions treat stem-cell research. If they're willing to put a baby through that much pain, but they're not willing to use the free-mutating cells to cure existing, established life. It's absolutely terrible.

Belief in the Jewish G-d gives deferential treatment to science. It allows for all explanations of creation other than magic. So long as it's logical, it's fine. It's not a limiting belief, but a liberating belief.

That's very interesting. If god didn't create the universe then that means god had to be created, and I'm wondering how you can come to believe in a god that is created beyond the creation of a universe but still doesn't show himself beyond the anecdotes of your fellow peers.

Time is a part of the universe. It's called the space time continuum and it's what the world is built on. G-d created time, so G-d could have a beginning. The idea of a before and after require time, which G-d created and is not bound by. It's an illogical question. It sounds like words, but when you parse it, it's illogical gibberish. What changed before time? Change without change? Doesn't compute.

Time is a result of the creation of the universe. It's just the method we use to interpret continual change. God cannot create methods of measurement. Humans did that to make sense of the universe. It's not a thing to be created and manipulated. In fact, the only thing that we know could possibly manipulate time is if two black holes collide. There is a theoretical path that one could take that would put them slightly back in time, but they wouldn't come out alive, probably just the emission of reflective light and not the particles themselves, but this is all just theoretical astrophysics. Think of it this way. Is it possible for a universe to exist without continual change? If no, then why would a god have to create it? If yes, then how can a god act in a universe without change, let alone exist before the universe is even formed. We know that nothing can come from something, but it's a gratuitous leap to say that intelligence exists before life.

Wrong religion. Judaism is rational above all else, we do not believe G-d works in mysterious ways, and all his ways are of truth. I haven't seen any illogical fallacies and I have a standing bet against all atheists world wide to identify one that doesn't rest on a logical fallacy itself.

If god doesn't fit the fate-weaver persona, then what is he to you? Just a super powerful alien? And atheists have a standing bet on you to prove that this god exists since you carry the burden of proof. If you say, "god exists" we have the right to ask to see, touch, taste, smell, or hear it. Since god cannot be defined in a physical body, there is no proof. Internal justifications in our own minds do not convey proof. "Just because" beliefs don't convey proof, and you're still left with, what I would call a tragedy, of passing these beliefs on to your children. Whether they want to believe it or not.

Again, wrong religion. We believe that homeless in our community have an absolute right to two meals a day and a rough over their heads at night. We do not have an obligation to build a synagogue until other needs are met. In most smaller communities, shul is in the rabbi's basement.

This is wonderful to hear, and it is very considerate, and I hope it's true, but it can still be done without religion. You are still putting the money into building the synagogue which could be spent on a charity. Every day I drive to work, I pass a church with a $10,000 brand new LED sign, with a brick wall built up around it. I know how much it costs because I researched them for my business. We could only afford a $500 one with a wooden frame that I had to build to support it. Any house of worship, is a business, and it sells hope. This church must have been booming because they put in a new parking lot as well as this brand new sign. All of this was done during the 2nd greatest depression the US has seen in centuries. Tell me something isn't wrong with this story.

Self-hatred is actually forbidden. We are commanded to love ourselves because we are commanded to love others as ourselves. You can't love others until you love yourself. If you have done wrong, G-d has provided a way to atone. Make it better and promise yourself you won't do it again. It is not dealing with your issues that cause shame and self-hatred.

Again, this is good to hear, but it can be done without the stigma of religion. While your religion is becoming more and more benign to me, the more I hear about it, it just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. It seems more like a culture than a religion besides your required belief in god, unless you're being disingenuous with me.

Halakha states that if science contradicts what we believe, what we believe is wrong. It is a sin to fool yourself that the world is different. This physical world represents the will of G-d and denying it is denying G-d.

That is incredible. This is one of the few religions that doesn't seem to be in the way of anything else. Thanks for letting me know about your beliefs and I hope we continue this conversation. The reason I addressed this to theists is because it applies to most religions. There is plenty of evidence for how we came to exist, but none for a god that isn't presupposed. I was generalizing in my original post so that I could get a bunch of conversations going. If you believe that your religion is as harmless as you say it is, then that's fine, but your self-censorship of the word "G-d" says otherwise. It has changed the way you would behave if you didn't believe in a god that seems to have a futile purpose. Much like how I now treat the word god as a noun instead of a name since I appreciate grammar as best I can in these long posts. :)

[–]ShamanSTKjewish 0 points1 point ago

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Doctors have discovered...

Nothing wrong with a little unremembered pain. I have witnessed many circumcisions and the baby does not seem to be aware of the process. While baby's technically may feel pain, they lack the cognitive faculties to suffer or emotionally react to it. My religion doesn't suffer the hypocrisy of stem cell research and I see no problem with it. Any commandment can be broken to save a life. We were given the law to live by, not die by.

If god didn't create the universe then that means god had to be created

I don't see how the conclusion follows from the premise. And I never said G-d didn't create the universe. Science can tell us how he did it. In biblical hebrew, the study of physics is called maaseh bereshis, the work of creation. It has always been the Jewish contention that G-d created the universe by ordering it to come into existence. It's not a misnomer that we call them the "laws" of physics.

I'm wondering how you can come to believe in a god that is created beyond the creation of a universe but still doesn't show himself beyond the anecdotes of your fellow peers.

My G-d isn't created. Created implies a before and after, which is a created concept that G-d created. G-d is a static being. He does not change. And he shows himself in that we exist. We believe that this world represents the will of G-d. It is said that the heavens and the earth themselves sing praise to G-d. That is because their existence logically rests on G-d as their foundation. G-d is also available to personal experience through self nullification. I can go through logical proofs for this if you wish.

Time is a result.....

Time is objective. Things change at a certain constant measurable rates that change predictably with a change of velocity. Time is relative, but it is objective and does exist. How we divide it up may be arbitrary, but there is an objective time and it's more than just a measurement of change. It's also an actual dimension that's traveled just a really as space is traveled. If you get into time not being real, you get into everything not being real which is path neither of us want to take.

This is wonderful to hear, and it is very considerate, and I hope it's true, but it can still be done without religion. You are still putting the money into building the synagogue which could be spent on a charity.

Who would claim you need religion to give to charity? It's objectively false. Also, the synagogue does serve a real purpose outside of vain glory. Synagogues are traditionally very humble places, but they serve the function of a town center. Even secular societies need meeting halls, courts, and auditoriums. I do see a huge problem with mega churches and expensive signs. G-d's money is not supposed to be self serving. Defeats the entire purpose

Again, this is good to hear, but it can be done without the stigma of religion.

Of course not.

While your religion is becoming more and more benign to me, the more I hear about it, it just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

My religion is the simplest answer to why a variety of things we see is true. We take a simple premise, ethical monotheism, that there is one G-d who predates everything we see, and this world represents his will. It can even be further simplified that everything we know to be true stems from the fact that G-d was alone before creation. I can provide for you logical proofs which will mirror the one I said above.

If you believe that your religion is as harmless as you say it is, then that's fine, but your self-censorship of the word "G-d" says otherwise.

LoL. I'm not self censoring. God god god god GOD god god. Doesn't mean a thing. It's not censorship, but has a loose base in halakha. When the name of G-d is written in hebrew, the writing becomes sacred and something of respect. Judaism puts a level of sacredness to the written word because they represent knowledge, which is the highest pursuit. G-d however, is the highest level of knowledge and demands an even higher respect. Therefore, we do not just throw away writings with the name of G-d on it. We place them in repositories where we preserve them, or we bury them in cemeteries. Since I do not write in hebrew often, I type G-d so I remember not to write it idly in the event I actually write in hebrew. If I didn't, I may forget and do it carelessly. It's a personal choice and not even a normative one. TLDR, there is a difference between censorship and respect.

[–]idwolfatheist|antitheist[S] 0 points1 point ago*

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My G-d isn't created. Created implies a before and after, which is a created concept that G-d created. G-d is a static being. He does not change. And he shows himself in that we exist.

Again, you are insisting that "we exist" therefore "god must exist". There is no correlation. We could replace god with anything invisible. The argument is not evidence. It is a well-known fallacy. It doesn't work because it's the basis for all superstition: I broke a mirror, therefore I have 7 years of bad luck. These are not true.

G-d created the universe by ordering it to come into existence. It's not a misnomer that we call them the "laws" of physics.

Well, this is just semantics but a law is also defined as, "An individual rule as part of a system". Since we define words, it doesn't really add credence to your statement. The universe has been shown to be self-sufficient. We've traced back our origins, quite literally, to the start of time, to the best of our abilities, and you have to realize that religions have declared that a living being is responsible far before we knew it could happen on its own. So do you know about quantum fluctuations? I am certainly no expert, but I watched a two-hour lecture on how quantum fluctuations can build up over time and that could have caused the high amount of energy that resulted in the big bang. I'm not smart, but I'm a total nerd about this kind of stuff. I love hearing this kind of science explained in layman's terms. We don't have an exact answer, but it's better to say that we don't know then to assume we have the answer and to stop looking. You say your religion won't get in the way of the answer, but what if god is in the way?

If you get into time not being real, you get into everything not being real which is path neither of us want to take.

I didn't really say that. I said that either time was a result of existence, or that time was nonexistent at some point and then it was created, which would be another fallacy since a being can't manipulate a universe where time has stopped. So it's safe to assume that time was created at the start of the quantum fluctuations (as far as we can tell). Talking about time before this is where we get into paradoxes. How for back could we possibly go back if we were to go back even before the big bang? I'm not smart enough to debate that. :)

Synagogues are traditionally very humble places, but they serve the function of a town center.

This is why it seems more like a culture than a religion. I have no problems with town squares, but I do have problems with religious buildings, no matter how polite they are. This also allows for segregation of ideals. I wouldn't feel comfortable going to a town meeting if it was in a synagogue or a church, as would opposing religious views. Are they normally pretty diverse with religious groups or do they mostly serve as town halls just for orthodox Jews?

My religion is the simplest answer to why a variety of things we see is true. We take a simple premise, ethical monotheism, that there is one G-d who predates everything we see, and this world represents his will. It can even be further simplified that everything we know to be true stems from the fact that G-d was alone before creation. I can provide for you logical proofs which will mirror the one I said above.

If this world is his will, and not the result of chaos, no matter how cold that may seem, then how can everything be explained by physics? If physics were different, then the universe may not hold together as we know it, but this is way into theoretical territory, and putting god in this answer also prevents us from looking into what other possible ways a universe could react with small particles. Maybe this is the only way a universe could possibly be. If so, a god would not be necessary. There are billions of galaxies in the universe, and there is so much to learn still. Life makes a lot more sense if we're just living because we've developed survivability. It's simple and it makes sense. If you want to assume the universe has meaning, because a god has cognition so he must create something with a purpose. Hypothetically, if a god exists then we're not an accident. That means that you now have to start filling in the gaps with your imagination. Why are there so many galaxies? Why are they so far apart? Why would he create billions of worlds, bring life to this one, and then never visibly alter it in a supernatural way? These answer are much simpler when you realize that it was just a giant domino effect. We exist within this universe because of a series of events that happened to bring us to this very point in time. Look at all of the planets that can't contain life. What is their purpose besides their duty to follow the laws of physics? Things could be completely different, in a hypothetical universe, and that universe would not care if we existed or not, because we are the ones that put the pressure on the question. We have to have a brain capable of higher thinking to assume a purpose, which is an unfortunate byproduct of cognition.

LoL. I'm not self censoring. God god god god GOD god god. Doesn't mean a thing. It's not censorship, but has a loose base in halakha.

I have succeeded! Blasphemy! lol :D

[–]ShamanSTKjewish 0 points1 point ago

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Again, you are insisting that "we exist" therefore "god must exist".

I have insisted it, but I haven't yet argued it yet. You're assuming way too much about my position. I'm probably not going to get into yet, because I"m about to get my smoke on.

You say your religion won't get in the way of the answer, but what if god is in the way?

It can't be in the way. G-d is way too lofty to get in the way of anything physical. G-d is the why to the how. Even if it is discovered, which I certainly believe it will be which I base on scripture and logic, that physics created the universe, that is not inconsistent with G-d creating physics. G-d defines how it happens, so even if we discover how, and it is an extremely simple answer, all the more glory to a G-d who can create a world that creates sentient beings from a single principle.

Are they normally pretty diverse with religious groups or do they mostly serve as town halls just for orthodox Jews?

You're right. Judaism is a culture. But it is a culture defined by the will of G-d. They serve as the center for our culture/religion.

Why is god so necessary to you?

To avoid logics loops like physics created themselves or infinite regressions like this world is infinitely old. If there is a beginning of time, and physics created it, where did physics come from? Are physics really anything other than the rules? If they're the rules, why are they the rules? Even if deduced to a single principle, where is the why? If there is no why, it would be the only thing without a why. I don't like to carve out arbitrary exceptions because I don't know.

Why are there so many galaxies? Why are they so far apart? Why would he create billions of worlds, bring life to this one, and then never visibly alter it in a supernatural way?

Judaism does not assume or assert that we are the only life forms. Evolution is intrinsic to this universe. Why shouldn't life blossom all over the universe? If G-d's will is that we know him, wouldn't it make sense that life and sentient creatures would expand to fill it? I believe the purpose of the universe is to create self aware souls. Humans didn't always. Adam was the first. Which means there was intelligent life that didn't develop souls. So human doesn't = soul. Self aware and able to contemplate the infinite = soul.

[–]idwolfatheist|antitheist[S] 0 points1 point ago

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I'm probably not going to get into yet, because I"m about to get my smoke on.

Yeah, this will probably be my last post. My sleep meds are on full overdrive. ಠ_ಠ

To avoid logics loops like physics created themselves or infinite regressions like this world is infinitely old. If there is a beginning of time, and physics created it, where did physics come from?

God doesn't get a free pass on logic. The idea that god has always existed still begs the question, where is the evidence that god exists. Having a being exist for eternity means that we would never get to the point where a universe is created, because our past (before the creation of the universe) would be infinitely long which would create a mathematical paradox. So either there was a fixed starting point, the first quantum fluctuation, which would mean god would need to be created before that point, which begs for evidence.

I believe the purpose of the universe is to create self aware souls. Humans didn't always. Adam was the first. Which means there was intelligent life that didn't develop souls. So human doesn't = soul. Self aware and able to contemplate the infinite = soul.

See, now we're going to have some fun. You've told me that the universe has a purpose, and that this purpose has to do with souls. First off, souls are just as mythical as gods. I had an argument with a brain surgeon about souls, and I won lol, but I'd be happy to go into it with you a bit. Basically, our consciousness is a result of evolution. It is how we survive based on the functionality that is provided by our brains. There are many beings that exist without consciousness but are still living: trees and lower organisms being the best example. Our cognition gives us the illusion of a soul because we have developed emotions that require us to cope with death, a byproduct of our brains' advanced capabilities, most notably: communication. We have memories so that we know not to eat the same poisonous mushroom twice. Painful memories are a byproduct of emotions that were filtered through evolution because they help us continue to procreate. Emotions, memories, and language has proven to be a great asset to survivability since there are over 7 billion of us now.

Who is Adam, by the way? We are in the ape family, so it's kind of off-putting that you're telling me you believe in evolution, but then when humans finally came into existence, this guy got a soul. I don't follow the logic, at all. Wouldn't the logic be that eventually there will be even greater beings beyond our existence? Neaderthals didn't get souls because they didn't develope the piece of the brain that lets us speak? Birds have a similar part of the brain, do they get souls? Where is the evidence for any of this? I love evidence! I don't believe in any of this so I'm basically trying to argue your point for you now. We know, thanks to the human genome project, that we were once an endangered species. All of lineage from our DNA points to a small group of humans, roughly 6,000 who survived on the continent of Africa. Language lead to philosophy which lead to this conversation, that can all be explained as a need to interact with others, because a tribal mentality is beneficial. There are simplified answers for our behaviors that don't take away from the beauty of our complexity which has developed over time to allow us to have this debate on reddit. All of these point directly to survivability. None of them point to a purpose.

If our brain gets damaged, the person can become severely disabled. Our memories can be distorted or removed completely. Souls, once again, are not seen heard or distinguished by any other method with even a mediocre degree of scientific accuracy. Trust me, I was obsessed with the topic for a long time. The idea that there is a soul and humans are the ones to get it, once again, it has no evidence other than the credence followed by your faith. These presuppositions that you make about souls bring up a bunch of new questions instead of answering them. What about baby souls? What about the souls of the disabled? Why are souls not physically seen or measurable? (These are rhetorical of course.) It's feeding into your idea of faith, with no scientific basis. I would never just take these ideas at their face value like that. Supply me with some evidence and I'll debunk it for you. :)

I'll check back tomorrow. good night for now!

[–]ifihadashotgunAtheistic Existentialist 0 points1 point ago

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No harm other than definitional harm. There is no objective reason to believe there is any physical or psychological harm done other than simply saying a change is damage or saying that disagreeing with your parents is psychological harm. There is no way to attack circumcision and remain constant with parental rights.

Congratulations! You have said one of the most appallingly stupid things I've heard in awhile and appealed to solipsism in the same sentence.

[–]ShamanSTKjewish 0 points1 point ago

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Care to elaborate or am I going to have to take your statements of fact on faith?

[–]ifihadashotgunAtheistic Existentialist 1 point2 points ago

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Do you not understand how irreparably removing a part of an unconsenting third-party is an extremely objectionable action?

[–]ShamanSTKjewish 0 points1 point ago

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Nope. An uncountable number of people do it everyday and the negative effects are fringe and debatable. It's a safer decision to make than letting your kid go outside and play. Unless you want to define it as harmful in of itself, which let's face it is pretty stupid, you're going to have to give a better argument. Having personally worked with constitutional familial and religious rights, I can professionally (lawyer here) attest that it is impossible to ban circumcision while retaining any first amendment rights and parental rights. You live in a free country. You have every right to disagree. You do not have a right to stop. See the abortion argument. If you don't like it, don't do it.

[–]ifihadashotgunAtheistic Existentialist 1 point2 points ago

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The difference between the two is that at a certain point, a fetus is not a conscious human being, while an infant child is. This really is a stupid analogy. Using your logic, it would be perfectly okay to have your infant tattooed if you felt like it. Why is this not legal? Pretending that it's allowed for any reason other than superstitious tradition is dishonest.

I can professionally (lawyer here) attest that it is impossible to ban circumcision while retaining any first amendment rights

Are you fucking joking? Nothing in the first amendment gives you the right to forcibly perform medical procedures on another human being.

[–]ShamanSTKjewish 0 points1 point ago

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Also, how does that mean solipsism? Sounds like solipsism is becoming a meaningless buzzword here.

[–]ifihadashotgunAtheistic Existentialist 1 point2 points ago*

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No, solipsism refers to the belief that nothing can be proven to be objective other than your own mind (and depending on the definition, truth), which you demonstrated when you said

There is no objective reason to believe there is any physical or psychological harm done other than simply saying a change is damage or saying that disagreeing with your parents is psychological harm.

[–]namer98Orthodox Jew|תורה עם דרך ארץ|mod/r/Judaism | ★ 0 points1 point ago

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I own a copy of NT and Koran, so please do not make grand assumptions about what I do and do not own.

Judaism also believes that non-Jews go to heaven. So what fuel is being thrown onto what fire? And ever see a lavish synagogue these days?

[–]idwolfatheist|antitheist[S] 0 points1 point ago

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The idea of god sits in place of the answer of how the universe came into existence. Presupposing an answer is harmful, even if everything else you do allows for science to overtake religion. That's good that you've educated yourself on other religions though.

[–]namer98Orthodox Jew|תורה עם דרך ארץ|mod/r/Judaism | ★ 1 point2 points ago

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There are certain philosophies within Judaism that state that science and other secular subjects must coexist with religion, must be given respect and must be understood in order to understand religion.

[–]mrdrzeusanti-theist | masturbationist 0 points1 point ago

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Moderate religion does harm because it legitimizes fundamentalist religion. Even if you haven't personally kidnapped any moderate Jewish babies for not being raised by an Orthodox family, or tried to deny Palestinians equal citizenship in the country they were born in, your practicing your faith and presumably bringing your children up in that faith in no way improves the world. It does, however, legitimize fundamentalist insanity by making it seem to be only a part of your respectable, moderate religion.

[–]namer98Orthodox Jew|תורה עם דרך ארץ|mod/r/Judaism | ★ 0 points1 point ago

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Kidnapping?

Not all Jews are Zionists. In fact most of orthodox Jewery is anti-zionist.

[–]mrdrzeusanti-theist | masturbationist 0 points1 point ago

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Your reply has absolutely nothing to do with my comment. I can only presume you meant to reply to someone else, who said anything about Zionism.

[–]namer98Orthodox Jew|תורה עם דרך ארץ|mod/r/Judaism | ★ 0 points1 point ago

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From your post

kidnapped any moderate Jewish babies

tried to deny Palestinians equal citizenship

[–]mrdrzeusanti-theist | masturbationist 0 points1 point ago

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From your post

kidnapped any moderate Jewish babies

tried to deny Palestinians equal citizenship

...neither of which require that the person committing the injustice be a Zionist. The former requires a belief that Jewish babies need to be brought up in as Orthodox a fashion as possible, and the latter just requires being a dick.

At any rate, you're completely ignoring my original comment. You tried for special pleading to the effect that yes, other religions are bad, but your religion couldn't possibly do harm. I pointed out that even if you personally haven't done direct harm, your moderate faith legitimizes extremists within any faith, and particularly within your own. Do you have anything to say in response to that, or would you rather keep trying to put words in my mouth about Zionism (which I could not care less about)?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

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Do you at least see the negative impact that religion has on society; on the world?

No?

Under an atheistic worldview, religion does not exist. It is a non-entity. Everything was done by humans. All of religion was invented by humans.

So why are you trying to blame religion for anything? You might as well blame a painting for what the painter depicted, or what it inspires later on.

[–]ifihadashotgunAtheistic Existentialist 4 points5 points ago

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Under an atheistic worldview, religion does not exist.

This is quite possibly one of the most ignorant and/or stupid things I have read in this subreddit.

So why are you trying to blame religion for anything? You might as well blame a painting for what the painter depicted, or what it inspires later on.

This is a terrible analogy. Paintings are not generally meant to convey and propagate certain ideologies, while religion and other philosophies are.

I blame Nazism for the holocaust, and fascism for WWII era Italy and Romania. Contrary to what you may believe, words and ideas do convey certain meanings.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

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This is quite possibly one of the most ignorant and/or stupid things I have read in this subreddit.

I am using "exist" in the sense that it exists out in reality regardless of human opinion.

Would you say this is true? Is "religion" a part of the fabric of reality? Can science detect it?

I blame Nazism for the holocaust, and fascism for WWII era Italy and Romania.

Then you are an excessively, seemingly willingly ignorant person.

Nazism is just what I would use as an example. Nazism has done nothing. Everything the Nazis did was done by humans, who we mentally unite under the banner of "Nazism".

Do you believe in magical mental entities that control our minds? If not, how can you make any sense of your belief that an ideology can "cause" anything?

Paintings are not generally meant to convey and propagate certain ideologies,

Have you heard of propaganda?

Do you blame propaganda if people believe the ideologies it advertises?

[–]idwolfatheist|antitheist[S] 0 points1 point ago

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Well, all things weren't "done" by humans. A lot of it was done by mitochondria which took billions of years to figure themselves out with natural selection, along with DNA. How did those moving parts get there? Well, proteins were pushed together under high pressure systems called mica plates underneath water that formed on various planets throughout the solar system. This created single cell life which lead bacteria which we know some strains can survive the vacuum of space as well as the high doses of radiation emitted by stars. This allowed bacteria to spread all over the universe by clinging onto meteors or various other moving parts, particularly to our galaxy. How did elements get here you ask? Well, quantum fluctuations created a natural wavering in the infinite emptiness of space that built up until they became so charged with energy that they split the universe into matter and anti-matter (a universe can come from nothing 0 = 1 + (-1) resulting in the big bang which formed all the elements that we know today through natural methods and through physics. Why do these physics work? Ask someone more credulous to continue... ಠ_ಠ

No gods exist. Religion exists because people like to tell stories, and they're really gullible. Also, it's a cult mentality. As long as other people are believing it, it must not be that bad!

[–]turambarcride licce, londbruth loga 1 point2 points ago

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It's been over 7 years since I stopped believing in all myths

As AtheismWeed says, I express a lot of skepticism over this, since very few people don't subscribe to myths of one form or another.

Religion and belief is so overpowering that consequence and prosperity are thrown out to make way for individual interpretation and not unbiased pros and cons: stem cell research on non-fetal cells, teaching the book of genesis in public schools as a scientific hypothesis of the universe's existence/contrasting the theory of evolution, and even extreme examples like witch-burnings in Africa and children being denied medical treatment over prayer.

None of which are actions taken or supported by my own faith group, or by many others. So if you're going to assert that "religion does this," you'll have to find some way of explaining how a bunch of guys who burn incense before a small idol and feed milk to a snake are responsible for such things.

[–]mrdrzeusanti-theist | masturbationist 1 point2 points ago

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None of which are actions taken or supported by my own faith group, or by many others.

No, but they were taken by a faith group. The existence of any faith group legitimizes all others, since one of the fundamental tenets of any religion is that illogical faith is a valid path to truth and that when evidence and faith conflict, faith should be chosen over evidence. So no, you didn't do any of those horrible things. But you've indirectly helped make them respectable.

[–]turambarcride licce, londbruth loga 0 points1 point ago

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The existence of any faith group legitimizes all others,

Why?

since one of the fundamental tenets of any religion is that illogical faith is a valid path to truth and that when evidence and faith conflict, faith should be chosen over evidence.

Citation needed. "Faith" is a primarily Christian concept. Please show me some sources which demonstrate that historic paganism, neopaganism, Buddhism, Taoism et alii value blind faith at all, let alone above evidence.

[–]mrdrzeusanti-theist | masturbationist 0 points1 point ago

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The existence of any faith group legitimizes all others,

Why?

since one of the fundamental tenets of any religion is that illogical faith is a valid path to truth and that when evidence and faith conflict, faith should be chosen over evidence.

It's funny to me that you asked why, and then answered yourself with your very next quotation.

Please show me some sources

So would you like me to post what I just said to a website somewhere and link to it? What sources would suffice to demonstrate something that is just logical and obvious? Historic paganism, neopaganism, and other religions (leaving out Buddhism and Taoism since they don't seem to make much in the way of supernatural claims, and are therefore more philosophies than religions) all involve the belief in entities that do not exist, and so by definition in order to have that belief one needs blind faith. Faith can't be anything but blind when it applies to entities that do not exist. And a religion can't spread and sustain itself unless it places some positive value on the basic habits of thought required to be a member of that religion in the first place.

I'm trying to figure out what you're objecting to here exactly. I can understand that you might not like to accept that any religious belief legitimizes the worst aspects of religion, but it seems like you're reaching for anything which might prove that wrong without stopping to consider whether it actually is wrong.

[–]turambarcride licce, londbruth loga 0 points1 point ago

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So would you like me to post what I just said to a website somewhere and link to it?

You're making a very definite claim about the nature of religious belief. Show me something in a reputable, peer-reviewed source which agrees with you; otherwise you're just providing your opinion.

leaving out Buddhism and Taoism since they don't seem to make much in the way of supernatural claims, and are therefore more philosophies than religions

So you get to ignore those religions which don't conform to your idea of what a religion is. Rather convenient bit of special pleading, don't you think?

all involve the belief in entities that do not exist, and so by definition in order to have that belief one needs blind faith.

Pagans, historically, did not "believe" in their gods any more than they "believed" in the sun or their neighbours. "Faith" has no place in neopagan discourse.

edit: Religions are only "belief in entities that do not exist" if we accept, from the start, the assumption that no such entities exist.

Religions are false because we assume from the beginning that religion is false.

It's convenient.

[–]mrdrzeusanti-theist | masturbationist 0 points1 point ago

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So you get to ignore those religions which don't conform to your idea of what a religion is.

Yup. So I get to ignore Yoga, Nihilism, Neoconservatism, and all other intellectual movements that aren't religions.

Rather convenient bit of special pleading, don't you think?

Yeah, I guess getting to address only actual religions when talking about religion is pretty convenient. Special pleading? Not so much.

You're making a very definite claim about the nature of religious belief. Show me something in a reputable, peer-reviewed source which agrees with you; otherwise you're just providing your opinion.

Yeah, I guess I am just stating my opinion. I can't prove that a glorification of faith is a requisite part of every possible religion. I can point to every existing religion and say that they all glorify faith over skepticism/empiricism, make a convincing argument that the very nature of religion (belief in that which does not exist) requires this, and from this claim that it seems quite likely that all religions necessarily elevate faith over observation and reason. You're welcome to provide a counter-example, if you disagree. Just try to limit your examples to actual religions (supernatural claims), instead of trying to muddle the waters with philosophies and formalized lifestyles.

Pagans, historically, did not "believe" in their gods any more than they "believed" in the sun or their neighbours. "Faith" has no place in neopagan discourse.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. If they worshipped their gods, they necessarily believed their gods existed, at the very least in the same sense as the sun or their neighbors. Yet they could never have actually met, seen, or found any evidence for their gods (since they do not exist). So in order to believe in the existence of their gods (no evidence) with at least as much certainty as they believed in the existence of their neighbors (lots of evidence) they must have placed faith over evidence (or the lack of it) when the two conflicted.

Religions are only "belief in entities that do not exist" if we accept, from the start, the assumption that no such entities exist.

Religions are false because we assume from the beginning that religion is false.

It's convenient.

I'm obliged to use my own judgment at some point, sure. I've yet to find any reason to believe the supernatural claims of any religion, so I judge that those claims are false. Since those claims are false, belief in those claims must have involved ignoring the lack of evidence when forming certainty.

I don't think that "catching" me using my own judgment to form opinions of the world is as damning as you apparently think it is.

[–]turambarcride licce, londbruth loga 0 points1 point ago

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Yup. So I get to ignore Yoga, Nihilism, Neoconservatism, and all other intellectual movements that aren't religions.

Major difference being that Yoga practitioners, nihilists, neocons and the like are neither generally identified as belonging to a specific religion nor do they identify themselves as a religion.

Taoism and Buddhism on the other hand are. This is significant.

However, both make metaphysical (ie above nature, "super-natural") claims, such as samsara, nirvana, rebirth, tao, etc.

I can point to every existing religion and say that they all glorify faith over skepticism/empiricism,

Buddhism. But since Buddhism is now not a religion, I can point to countless religious thinkers who advocate the usage of reason over "blind faith."

If they worshipped their gods, they necessarily believed their gods existed, at the very least in the same sense as the sun or their neighbors.

We use the term "believe" in different ways. I believe that the phenomena around me exist. I can "believe" in something against all evidence. The latter is a concept wholly alien to many religions - historic pagans, for example, believed in the Gods because they had good reasons to do so - tradition, observing the phenomenon associated with them, 'feeling' divine presence, etc.

The worst you can accuse them of is misinterpreting data rather than valuing blind, obstinate "belief" over the use of reason.

[–]mrdrzeusanti-theist | masturbationist 0 points1 point ago

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Taoism and Buddhism on the other hand are (identified as being a religion and identify themselves as a religion). This is significant.

I don't see why. People can call these movements whatever they want, but as I define the terms a religion needs to make supernatural claims. We already have words to describe intellectual movements, ordained lifestyles, philosophies of living, etc. If "religion" just means "vaguely spiritual life philosophy", then which word should I use to refer only to philosophical movements that make supernatural claims?

However, both make metaphysical (ie above nature, "super-natural") claims, such as samsara, nirvana, rebirth, tao, etc.

Only insofar as these terms are held to refer to physically existing things and not just abstract concepts could Buddhism and Taoism be held to be religions. I know that literal belief in these concepts is part of the core tenets of these religions, but I've yet to encounter a Buddhist who believed in their literal existence (which is why I classify them as following a philosophy rather than a religion). And well, I haven't met any Taoists, and am not very well informed about their beliefs, but I'd always thought they didn't make supernatural claims either. Could be I'm wrong about Tao.

But since Buddhism is now not a religion, I can point to countless religious thinkers who advocate the usage of reason over "blind faith."

Explain?

historic pagans, for example, believed in the Gods because they had good reasons to do so - tradition, observing the phenomenon associated with them, 'feeling' divine presence, etc.

The worst you can accuse them of is misinterpreting data rather than valuing blind, obstinate "belief" over the use of reason.

Interesting point. I wouldn't call tradition or unexplored and untested causal linkages good reasons, but I'll admit that until quite recently the phenomenon of feeling a divine presence didn't have any alternate explanations. So ok, maybe historic pagans simply couldn't have known better, and so can't be faulted for their mistakes. But my claims about modern religions still stand though. Since we know so much more about the world now, there is no longer any innocent excuse for "misinterpreting data" in these ways. In order for someone to persist in theism they have to ignore all the available evidence and information to the contrary, and that requires a subordination of reason/empiricism to faith.

[–]turambarcride licce, londbruth loga 1 point2 points ago

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I don't see why. People can call these movements whatever they want, but as I define the terms a religion needs to make supernatural claims.

These have historically been referred to as religions - of course you can change definitions to suit whatever you're getting at, but you'll have to account for why these terms have been taken to mean these things.

but I've yet to encounter a Buddhist who believed in their literal existence (which is why I classify them as following a philosophy rather than a religion).

Buddhism makes claims about the nature of reality, and frames those claims within a cultural and ritual context. If that's not a religion, I don't know what is.

Explain?

Buddhism promotes radical skepticism of everything. Off the top of my head, C.S. Lewis had some rather nasty things to say about the use of "blind faith," as did a large number of Catholic theologians. Plato, Aristotle, and most philosophers in the Greek and Roman tradition were "religious" in one form or another, insofar as they participated in religious life.

I wouldn't call tradition or unexplored and untested causal linkages good reasons, but I'll admit that until quite recently the phenomenon of feeling a divine presence didn't have any alternate explanations.

We believe in a lot of things because of tradition, i.e. because we're told them. I believe China exists because I've been told this by many people, although I've never been there.

Granted, the existence of a country is not an extraordinary claim in my current world-view, and so I'd have no reason to doubt it unless presented strong evidence otherwise. In a worldview which allows deities, the claim that a deity exists or existed is not unusual.

until quite recently the phenomenon of feeling a divine presence didn't have any alternate explanations.

And you'll find that there are theists who are somewhat open to those possibilities, at least as open as most "agnostic atheists" are to the concept of God. But these alternate explanations aren't entirely comprehensive or satisfactory for a number of reasons.

[–]mrdrzeusanti-theist | masturbationist 0 points1 point ago

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In a worldview which allows deities, the claim that a deity exists or existed is not unusual.

I disagree with this though it's hard to explain clearly precisely why. A claim that a deity exists or that miracles takes place must necessarily contradict all of one's previous life experience in a way that claims about China or other more mundane things do not. I may not speak cantonese or eat rice daily, but nothing in my experience makes these things implausible or incredible. However, I have never flown, or thrown lightning bolts, or turned into a bull to deflower a maiden, etc. A world-view which allows these things still can never have experienced them or anything analogous to them, so maintaining that world view will necessarily involve unsupported leaps of faith that are flatly contradicted by one's everyday experiences.

I'd answer more in depth, but I've gotta go. Will try to respond more in depth later if you feel it's called for.

[–]idwolfatheist|antitheist[S] 0 points1 point ago

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Myth: A traditional story, esp. one concerning the early history of a people.

It's not that much of a stretch to not believe wild stories about religious texts. I am a skeptic who isn't gullible. I truly don't believe in any mythology. If it doesn't have evidence, then I think it's slowing human progress down to collectively believe in such things. When the bible, for instance, talks about people walking on water and moving tides at will, it's easy to say that something is wrong here. Physics, and simple logic, tell us that this is impossible.

Plus when we have theories that have been proven to be true over and over like evolution (and gravity) then it tends to put a damper on the whole genesis part. Even the Vatican recognizes evolution as truth, but the southern states in my country are still confused about it. It's completely ridiculous.

None of which are actions taken or supported by my own faith group, or by many others. So if you're going to assert that "religion does this," you'll have to find some way of explaining how a bunch of guys who burn incense before a small idol and feed milk to a snake are responsible for such things.

It's not the actions that hurt... it's the state of mind that's hurting you. That you believe feeding milk to a snake will do anything other than nourish the snake, it feeds the fire of superstition. Have you ever heard that correlation does not imply causation? It means, when the Native Americans danced, and it began to rain, their dancing did not make it rain. Having rituals may help ease your mind, but that's all it does. It's the people who take these rituals too far that cause the problems, but ultimately if people chose to continue your rituals instead of actually doing something that could help someone, then it would start to cause a problem as well.

[–]turambarcride licce, londbruth loga 0 points1 point ago

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If it doesn't have evidence, then I think it's slowing human progress down to collectively believe in such things.

So you believe in human progress as a process with a goal which can be slowed and hindered. See, there's a myth right for you. What is progress? How do you measure it? What happens when the goal of it is met? What makes it happen?

it's the state of mind that's hurting you.

Can you show me any studies which show that religiosity leads to unhappiness, social disintegration, or other forms of "harm"?

Have you ever heard that correlation does not imply causation?

...

but ultimately if people chose to continue your rituals instead of actually doing something that could help someone,

You're acting as if there's such a paucity of action that people can't do both - there are countless religious charities, along with individuals who are religious who also engage themselves in charity work of various kinds.

[–]idwolfatheist|antitheist[S] 0 points1 point ago

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So you believe in human progress as a process with a goal which can be slowed and hindered. See, there's a myth right for you. What is progress? How do you measure it? What happens when the goal of it is met? What makes it happen?

You're changing around the definition of the word to suit your purpose. It doesn't work like that.

Mythology: "A traditional story, esp. one concerning the early history of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon, and typically."

A prediction of human nature is not believing in a myth.

Can you show me any studies which show that religiosity leads to unhappiness, social disintegration, or other forms of "harm"?

Well, I can certainly speak from my own experiences, since religion took a big chunk of my life that I can't get back, but I'm sure you don't care about that, so let's run down the list:

Unhappiness: Christianity in particular says that people are scum, made from mud, and must feel sorry for ourselves for the sin we are born with every single day. But you're a pagan so even though I'm more familiar with my own previous religion, I'll try to cater this to you. You believe in multiple gods. Remember the Roman Empire? Where pagans persecuted and taxed Jews for their beliefs? Well, that's okay, because the roman empire fell, and the jews and christians won that one. I'm not as familiar with paganism's history so I'll be honest, my big ones are: the crusades, the spanish inquisition, and world war 2. If your paganism makes you happy, then that's great, but your relationship with the earth mother must put a damper on job interviews as a doctor or theoretical physicist right?

I'm guessing the biggest problem you suffer from is being called a witch. Remember all those witch burnings I talked about in Africa? That doesn't tug at your heart strings a little bit? Religions will always have differences, but facts don't care what you believe.

social disintegration: this one's easy. It's segregation by belief. I'm sure, as a wicca, you have been confronted about your beliefs many times. I mean, instead of having one god for everything, you believe that there a many gods that each control different aspects of life that already have known controllers. It's that old Thor vs static electricity thing. Besides that whole Salam witch trial thing, all believes of all types have to undergo the burden of proof that their beliefs lack. This conflict has escalated into war. Even the Pagans and the Christians fought and killed each other.

harm: Well, if you really need this one explained to you, then you are way behind on your history lessons.

You're acting as if there's such a paucity of action that people can't do both - there are countless religious charities, along with individuals who are religious who also engage themselves in charity work of various kinds.

Of course they can and will do both. I understand that, but do you understand that it works both ways? While religion inspires people to do good to please their god(s), it also inspires them to be idiots when it comes to important decisions about our world's future, like the pope telling Africans that condoms are shunned upon by the christian faith. His idiocy just killed millions of people and spread the infection of a horrific disease that they do not have the resources to cure. Superstition is so bad in that country that they even believe that the condoms give them HIV!

The good things can be done without religion, but try explaining why a person shouldn't use a condom without religion. Try explaining why we shouldn't heavily invest in stem cell research without religion. Try explaining why we shouldn't persecute gays and bisexuals without religion. Religion poisons everything.

[–]turambarcride licce, londbruth loga -1 points0 points ago

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You're changing around the definition of the word to suit your purpose. It doesn't work like that.

No, I'm working with an accepted series of definitions. From http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/myth:

1a : a usually traditional story of ostensibly historical events that serves to unfold part of the world view of a people or explain a practice, belief, or natural phenomenon

2a : a popular belief or tradition that has grown up around something or someone; especially : one embodying the ideals and institutions of a society or segment of society <seduced by the American myth of individualism — Orde Coombs>

Progress is one such example - it often goes by another name, that of "Whig history." But it is most assuredly a mythic and ahistoric view of the world and human society.

Remember the Roman Empire?

No, I've absolutely forgotten about the existence of the Roman Empire.

At any rate, if you've done the slightest bit of reading on the history of religion under Rome, you'll find that they were quite willing to allow freedom of religious expression under their regime. "Persecuted and taxed for their beliefs?" Everyone under the empire was taxed. As for persecution, the Jews, and later the Christians staged frequent rebellions and armed uprisings - and any empire worth its salt is going to crush those mercilessly.

I'm not as familiar with paganism's history so I'll be honest, my big ones are:

This is exactly the fallacy that I pointed out in my original post - you admit ignorance on the topic of other religions, yet you go on insisting that what you know about Christianity applies to them.

Do you not see the flaws in your thinking?

but your relationship with the earth mother must put a damper on job interviews as a doctor or theoretical physicist right?

Well, I can't speak about theoretical physics, but my religious beliefs have not been a hindrance to my academic career at all, no.

social disintegration: this one's easy. It's segregation by belief.

Which, again, fails to show how the minority religions are somehow responsible for the oppression committed by the dominant faiths. Again I point out that the Romans and Greeks were quite tolerant of other religious beliefs within their areas of control.

I'm sure, as a wicca, you have been confronted about your beliefs many times.

Whatever gave you the idea that I was Wiccan?

I mean, instead of having one god for everything, you believe that there a many gods that each control different aspects of life that already have known controllers. It's that old Thor vs static electricity thing.

Again, this is the same fallacy that I mentioned. You clearly know very little about pagan belief, yet you're making definitive statements and expecting to be taken seriously about them.

His idiocy just killed millions of people and spread the infection of a horrific disease that they do not have the resources to cure.

You are only producing examples that are relevant to one religion. I ask again, how does this show that religion, as a near-universal human phenomenon, shares responsibility for this?

Superstition is so bad in that country that they even believe that the condoms give them HIV!

Which country is this?

but try explaining why a person shouldn't use a condom without religion. Try explaining why we shouldn't heavily invest in stem cell research without religion. Try explaining why we shouldn't persecute gays and bisexuals without religion

I suggest that you read 1984 for an example. I should also point out that Stalin criminalized homosexual activity under the USSR in the 1930s.

Religion poisons everything.

Well, if it can be expressed in a catchy soundbite, then it must be true.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

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Reading the title, I was actually expecting some arguments or reasoning in the post.

I know, I know... I'm still a starry-eyed dreamer, ignorant in the ways of the world.

[–]idwolfatheist|antitheist[S] 0 points1 point ago

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It's a question. I've learned to be humble about what I expect people to believe. I can debate questions much better than I can presuppose. If you would like me to elaborate on the title, I'd be willing to.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

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What I would like is for people to give arguments for their claims, and for the discussion to concern whether those arguments are sound. Anything else is rhetoric rather than reason; whimsy and prejudice rather than evidence and support.

[–]idwolfatheist|antitheist[S] 0 points1 point ago

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I said I'd be happy to clarify anything with exactly what you're asking for, if you would only tell me what you want to know more about...

I'm a reactive person. If I went into every single possibility of what my brain was thinking I would go on forever and no one would read it. Allow me to custom-tailor my response to whatever you want. Tell me what you want me to elaborate on.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

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I said I'd be happy to clarify anything with exactly what you're asking for, if you would only tell me what you want to know more about...

I want to know more about what positions are justified by reason and evidence.

Tell me what you want me to elaborate on.

I don't see any arguments in your post, and so neither any arguments about which I could invite elaboration. I just see a bunch of claims without any support given for them. Because what I want to know about is what positions are justified by reason and evidence, my response to seeing a bunch of claims without any support given for them is to encourage reason as a preferable method to opinion.

Let us begin with the first words you write: "Religious belief is psychosomatic." Why should any reasonable person believe this? You give no indication. Next: "Nothing about faith is testable..." Why should any reasonable person believe this? You give no indication. And so on.

[–]idwolfatheist|antitheist[S] 0 points1 point ago

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  • Religious belief is psychosomatic.

I answered this in another post, but I will type it again to keep it fresh. Psychosomatic means the interaction between the mind and the body. Much like seeing a loved one enter the room, the pituitary gland spits out endorphins, adrenalin pumps though the bloodstream, and there's a spark in the brain that lights up (an area near the base, from what I remember of the documentary I saw). These are chemical reactions. Religious belief, when it is not being begrudgingly followed by unwilling teenagers, can reach the same euphoria. This reaction can come from the idea of a person, even as simply as a photograph, or a mental image. It is evidence that a person is being excited, and not evidence for existence. Since the most intense reason for people believing in god seems to be that they've felt his presents, I am saying that it is a psychosomatic reaction, completely within a closed nervous system, until a deity is seen causing the reaction. It's either a chemical imbalance, hallucinations (signs of cancer or other illness), or the most common being bad information and a good imagination.

  • Nothing about faith is testable...

The definition of faith is: "Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof."

Faith takes the place of proof when there is none. Evidence is how we classify what is real and what is not. If you believe in something that is not real, while I only believe in things that are real, you are not sharing the same reality as I. It leads to complications, most notably in social interactions which can escalate into war, which is seen throughout human history, over and over again.

Anything else?

[–]jtaulbee 1 point2 points ago

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To Theists: Religious belief is psychosomatic. Nothing about faith is testable, and worship is self-fulfilling. If you knew that your beliefs were doing harm to society, would you question your faith?

I believe that this is called begging the question. Beginning your argument by stating opinion as fact is not conducive to balanced discussion.

[–]xoxoyoyospiritual integrationist 0 points1 point ago

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You have essentially gone through a stage where you have discarded everything that was false for you. Now perhaps it is time to find the truth.

The world is just a experience, we are god experiencing himself through the context of this world. If you absolutely knew life was a dream that you would wake up from one day would you have the same views about "good" and "evil"?

People do not kill other people, they just speed up an inevitable death process. The reality is that in the same way we were born into this world we will absolutely die from this world regardless of how hard we try to deny it or how much science discovers to combat death.

Life in the end is essentially meaningless. This planet will die, everything that ever lived here will join the furnace of a cooling sun. In the same fashion our universe will eventually die, perhaps the stars will burn out as they continue into infinity, or everything returns back for another big bang.

There is a lot of miserable stuff that happens in our lives, a lot of wonderful stuff also. But in the end it is just a dream, and one day we will wake up.

Out of meaninglessness we can decide on our own what meaning life has for us and what things we value and what things we create.

The falsehood of religion is that it took what should be personal experiences and turned them into a business. There is truth to be found in the world, however it exists inside of you and not within any building.

[–]mrdrzeusanti-theist | masturbationist 0 points1 point ago

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Apart from your first sentence, you apparently completely ignored the OP. Unless your point was that there is no reality and therefore no world for religion to harm? It's a stretch, but it's the only way I can find that anything you just said relates to the post.

[–]xoxoyoyospiritual integrationist 0 points1 point ago

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The point is to make sense of impossible contradictions

[–]idwolfatheist|antitheist[S] 0 points1 point ago

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Since I'm guessing you don't know what solipsism is, I should probably keep things short and simple.

We are not dreaming. We have interactions with other people. We can prove that we are having interactions with other people. There is no evidence for anything beyond this world. What you have stated as "truth" is little more than an imaginative idea. If you have no evidence for this idea other than it fits the loose restrictions you have for reality, then there is nothing to determine as true.

Neurologically speaking, we know what dreaming is. We know when another human being is dreaming. Some people even know when they are dreaming and they can become lucid and control the environment. This is not how reality works. It's not a dream within a dream. What you have described is extremely dangerous, if you actually believe it. Atheism doesn't mean that life has no consequences. That is unhealthy, and quite disturbing...

Our consciousness is a result of our brain, and no other outside factors. When our brain stops functioning, we are no longer conscious. The effects of the brain are seen in people who suffer from physical trauma, brain damage, Alzheimer's, short term and long term amnesia, personality disorders, and psychosis. If someone is capable of hallucinations, that does not mean all of reality is a hallucination. It just means that what they are experiencing is not within our shared reality. Much like your idea that reality is a dream. It is not provable, so if you truly believe it then you and I are no longer sharing a reality which would mean that you could have some sort of chemical imbalance, psychosis, or even worse! - Bad information and an overactive imagination. ಠ_ಠ

We can test whether or not we are in a shared reality with simple tests. The most simple explanation is that other people have information that you could not possibly have, and while we can't read minds they can reveal data to you that you can then go out and test to confirm. That's the simplest explanation... of course if we are all part of a god's dream, then we're not really hear, which is stupid because I am in a lot of pain right now, so I better exist or this god is a real twisted jerk.

Life isn't meaningless, it's just not one singular meaning like you want it to be. We make our own meaning. It's freeing knowing that there is nothing watching me and judging me besides the people around me, but it doesn't make me want to be any meaner to people, because I want to be happy. That's the meaning I keep for my life - being happy, and making other people happy keeps me happy. The Socratic method also makes me happy.

[–]xoxoyoyospiritual integrationist 0 points1 point ago

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Sorry for your pain, thanks for keeping things short and simple.

In the metaphysical viewpoint we are responsible for creating every single thing in our reality. There is no evil god to blame or impersonal universe. It is all us. We are pure consciousness experiencing beliefs. There are no limitations on what consciousness can be, feel or do, aside from limitations we purposely impose upon our selves.

This physical reality is the answer to the paradox "Can God make a rock so big He can't pick it up?". Yes and no. We have physical experiences through the body, which is also composed of other pure consciousnesses experiencing physical form, all the way down to subatomic particles, perhaps more. We have beliefs, our beliefs shape the world we experience. When we change our beliefs we change our world. The physical world is a representation of our beliefs turned into a solid form. Here we get to experience the exact process of how beliefs come into being as part of a time context and then we experience the consequences of those beliefs and how they clash/interact with other beliefs.

I watched a TED today where the point was essentially that the entirety of our sense of self was contained in the back of the brain stem. I don't doubt that is the link to whatever it is we truly are, but that is not the container of what we truly are.

This is a physical dream. It will end. My point about meaning was the same as you said. We create our own meaning out of life. Sure, there are consequences. We are responsible for everything. By taking taking responsibility we don't blame anyone for whatever happens, even if they are murdering us. This is all our creation, our choice and we can change it.

No doubt you have witnessed many failures along the new age, change your reality lines, but that is a part of the world you live in. Everything we see will prove out the fact that our beliefs are absolutely correct until such time as we seek to change them.

What about the pain in the world, why would we choose it? Why the starving kids in Africa? Why the deaths caused by war? It is all an experience, but it is a an experience in the world we created for ourselves. All of the things we see, the evil that happens, these are all things that are a part of our consciousness that we do not acknowledge.

Fix the situations or fix our consciousness and the result will be the same. For most people their answer when they see war is to simply shake their heads, or for starving kids, perhaps they send a few bucks to Africa to assuage their guilt. We are ultimately responsible for all of this.

You choose to live in a world where science defines the rules of what life is and how it can be lived. I accept that and respect that. I am merely pointing out that there is a different way the universe can be viewed, and not just that, it is compatible with ALL belief systems and absolutely everything makes sense from the origins of life to everything else.

I have no proof to give you. My world is my own and I have no ability to infringe upon the way you have created your world. If you are interested in the concepts you will find your own proof. Life will bring it to you. If not, that is fine, we can discuss ideas and you can have a laugh about nuts on the internet :) That is really what life is about, the interplay and intermingling of ideas. Thanks for sharing yours.

[–]idwolfatheist|antitheist[S] 0 points1 point ago*

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I have no proof to give you. My world is my own and I have no ability to infringe upon the way you have created your world.

This is where you should call the stops man. We aren't imposing the physics on this universe. The laws of physics are constant. This is just a completely wild theory that's very similar to solipsisms which has been debunked by the idea of a shared reality. People don't even give solipsists the time of day, because they believe all consciousness is in one single mind, their own. It's ridiculous. We know other people exist, and we can test this, so there is no reason to believe that we are in some type of bizarro virtual world. This is complete escapism.

Our beliefs in NO WAY shape the world, beyond social context. Physics, math, chemistry, and all of the other sciences could care less about people's beliefs. They are constant. The only thing that is not constant is our individual level of knowledge. Reality is not false, or skewed, or filtered in any way. Your organs are the direct filter for reality, which is a testament to medicine, because we can rule out when reality is being skewed by putting it up against other people's interpretations, which is how we know some people are colorblind.

This seems like a dangerous step towards losing one's grip on reality. I hope it's nothing more than a playful idea from your imagination.

[–]xoxoyoyospiritual integrationist 0 points1 point ago

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Physics define some of the core assumptions that determine the way you are experiencing this world. In theory it may be possible to change your belief/experience of physics, but most people have difficulty in changing any major beliefs. If you were successful you would no longer be experiencing this world but another that was compatible with your new beliefs.

It is all about imagination. If you don't have any, you will be forever limited in the things you can do and experience in this world and the way things happen.

Right now you are your body. You know for a fact that this is a temporary state of being. You can either accept with resignation the fact that you will die, or you can make an exploration of your consciousness to find out what is actually true and real about it and your life. Good luck and thanks for sharing :)

[–]idwolfatheist|antitheist[S] 0 points1 point ago*

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If you were successful you would no longer be experiencing this world but another that was compatible with your new beliefs.

You are saying that all of our realities are separate, based on our own perceptions. I despise this point of view. It's baseless, egotistical, and it completely negates responsibility. I want everyone to get on the same page, so we can start working together, instead of living our lives in our own various religious bubbles. Reality doesn't change based on your imagination. That's only possible if your brain isn't functioning normally. It's called schizophrenia and it's not pleasant. If you believe that all of reality is based on your own imagination, then who cares what you think, because you can just pretend to be happy. It's a natural high from your own ignorance. Some of us have to use alcohol for that.

[–]xoxoyoyospiritual integrationist 0 points1 point ago

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As I have stated earlier you are creating everything you experience based on your beliefs. You experience with other people that have similar beliefs. (ie: physics for one). That by definition means that you are responsible for everything you experience. How can being responsible for everything you experience "completely negate responsibility"? This is some concept you have created yourself so that you can dismiss other ideas without needing to explore them.

When you choose to take responsibility for things in your life you can change them. The opposite view is that you are a victim, subject to an evil god or an uncaring universe.

You can certainly live your life under whichever viewpoint you prefer. If your life works for you, not a problem. If not, change some beliefs, and your life will change correspondingly.

And the concept of changing a belief does not imply changing your mind. Since the physical world implies "process" we believe that changing a belief we have to undergo a process. That means going out and doing something about things.

Thanks for sharing your views.

[–]idwolfatheist|antitheist[S] 0 points1 point ago

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As I have stated earlier you are creating everything you experience based on your beliefs. You experience with other people that have similar beliefs.

If you are saying I pieced this reality together, then nothing else exists but my own mind, and you are talking about solipsism which is idiotic. If what you say is true then either you don't exist and I'm being an asshole to myself, or I don't exist and I'm just a mouse toy for you to bat around in your own head. If you are so far gone from reality that you want to completely disconnect yourself from it, then you really are irresponsible.

If something terrible happens, then who cares, just forget it. It was all in your imagination. Nothing matters, because you can just wish yourself away. I hope you don't have children, because it will be a complete downer when you tell them that they aren't real.

[–]xoxoyoyospiritual integrationist 0 points1 point ago

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Ok, so to start off with, there is consciousness, all consciousness, "all that is". It is one thing, all things possible, all realities, all at the same time. It is the ability to think and have beliefs. It can do this from an infinite number of different viewpoints. You and I are expressions of this one consciousness, but from different specific viewpoints. This physical reality is an expression of that consciousness. Everything that exists within it reflects one particular viewpoint of "all that is". That includes you, your body, your cells, the people you interact with, the ideas you have, the universe, everything. The source is always from the one consciousness.

The things you are experiencing now are based on your beliefs. You create your "experience". You are not creating the "things" in your experience. That is a co-creation. Everything has its own separate existence. Those things exist in your reality because they have similar beliefs about the nature of physical reality. You cannot change anything in your world. Any changes you experience occur because you have core beliefs about time and physics and processes and because you think you are doing stuff to make things happen or it happens on its own because of time.

That is one way to experience the world. There are other ways, where the universe can be a more fluid and less painful type of "happening" that you participate in. That universe can have spontaneous synchronicity events to occur and many surprises and challenges and mysteries. Life is supposed to be a fun and wonderful experience. It used to be that way when we were children and the universe was a magical place, before we were indoctrinated first with religion and then with science. Those things made us question ourselves. It put hard limits to our imagination, it shut down the possibilities of what our life can be. Many people can transcend these limitations and still manage to bring their creativity into this world. Others cannot and you can see the results in these very same forums.

Thanks for sharing yourself.

[–]idwolfatheist|antitheist[S] 0 points1 point ago*

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You and I are expressions of this one consciousness, but from different specific viewpoints.

They are not different realities, they're different interpretations of the single universe that we both exist in. Mine is based in logic and reason accumulated over time, and yours is based on the whim that everything is some sort of perversion of reality. Why you believe this, I have no idea, but you don't care about facts so how could I possibly argue about reality with someone who has lost his connection with it?

Everything that exists within it reflects one particular viewpoint of "all that is". That includes you, your body, your cells, the people you interact with, the ideas you have, the universe, everything. The source is always from the one consciousness.

This is the freaking plot to the matrix. Nothing is real, we're all just hooked up to a big god machine that you have absolutely no proof of besides your insane circular logic.

If we stop believing in physics, we can't bend spoons with our mind. If you stop believing in gravity, it doesn't mean you can fly. It also doesn't mean that there's some alternate dimension that you can teleport to in which people can fly. You live in a fantasy world to protect yourself from being harmed. The things that you believe are possible, are not possible, nor can they be made possible, and if that scares you, it doesn't matter, because the universe doesn't revolve around you. If there are no living beings in the universe, the planets would still revolve around the stars.

Don't use "indoctrination" with the word science since you have no clue what science means or why it even exists. If you're even coherent enough to read and follow along, or are you going to just stop believing in this sentence so it will go away? The study of knowledge is what gave you the technology in the computer that you're typing your insane theories on. Creativity and quality or strength of one's imagination doesn't require being completely absent of responsibility and knowledge. If you're so afraid of knowledge, then why are you still stuck in a place that restricts you to it? Go wish yourself away.

[–]ShakaUVMIdiosyncratic Christian | WatchMod 0 points1 point ago

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Well, let's say that faith in a certain religion will increase your life expectancy by two to three years (http://longevity.about.com/od/longevityboosters/a/religion_life.htm).

Sure, maybe it is just psychosomatic. But psychosomatic doesn't mean imaginary - it means there's a real, measurable effect taking place.

So if you're an atheist who is looking to live longer, wouldn't adopting a religion to add 2-3 years to your life thus be the rational choice to make?

[–]idwolfatheist|antitheist[S] 0 points1 point ago

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It's not the religion that's doing it. As an atheist, I would develop inflammation from the stress of being there, which is shown to be a major factor in causing cancer - therefore, going to church causes cancer. It's causation with no correlation. They even say it in the article you linked:

  • people who attend religious services may simply be healthier than those that cannot attend
  • the benefits may have more to do with social contact than religion itself
  • certain religions may encourage behaviors that are healthy

So if you're an atheist who is looking to live longer, wouldn't adopting a religion to add 2-3 years to your life thus be the rational choice to make?

I'd much rather eat a salad. :) If you saw how a magic trick was done, how can you forget it? That's how I feel. I can't unlearn things without a knock on the head.

[–]ShakaUVMIdiosyncratic Christian | WatchMod 0 points1 point ago

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Why not eat a salad, exercise, and go to church?

That one reference isn't the only web page on the planet. There's been lots of papers written on the increase in life expectancy due to religion.

So again, from a pragmatic point of view, it seems logical for atheists to adopt religion. (Presumably, a religion compatible with your beliefs, so you won't get colon cancer.)

[–]idwolfatheist|antitheist[S] 0 points1 point ago

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I think, by now, you can clearly see that I take the Christopher Hitchens view in which religion poisons everything, so I doubt there is a church for that. I still have a hard time believing that there's any correlation between worship and life expectancy. The correlation is most likely due to body regulation with scheduling, as well as the previous points. I just don't see any logic behind this. We dance, so it rains. That's not it.

[–]ShakaUVMIdiosyncratic Christian | WatchMod 1 point2 points ago

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Maybe people who are religious are less stressed out or worried? Or perhaps there's a benefit to belonging to a community that goes out of its way to care for each other? It doesn't matter. My point remains - even if the effect is purely psychosomatic, the effect is real.

religion poisons everything

Universalists, maybe?

[–]idwolfatheist|antitheist[S] 0 points1 point ago

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The placebo effect is also real. It doesn't mean I'm going to make myself miserable to prove you wrong. In the bottom of that article it stated that the people who go to church may have a higher income which would help them sustain better health care. Instead of forcing a random religion on me, why not try to figure out what's actually making the people live 2-3 years longer and then apply that to life. Guessing that religion is the cause and not a correlative circumstance doesn't really fit into the realm of knowledge. This is called speculation, very similarly to the phenomenon of the belief in prayer.

Universalists, maybe?

Believing that all people will be saved still makes me miserable, because I don't believe in magic. I find happiness in discovering how the magic trick is done.

[–]Kawoombamod|non-religious simulationist 0 points1 point ago*

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Define "harm to society". Over what time scale?

[–]Brett924 0 points1 point ago

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I've seen evil done in the name of religion. I've also seen evil done in the complete absence of faith or belief. If I were to give up my beliefs because someone, somewhere perpetrated evil out of a (in my mind) false use of the tenets of my faith, then I suppose an atheist should continue a search if evil is done as a result of someone's atheistic nihilism?

I've also seen so much good done out of a faith-based motivation: fighting human trafficking and water movements are huge among Christians these days (and no, they don't require a confession of faith before they offer assistance).

[–]idwolfatheist|antitheist[S] 0 points1 point ago

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That's fine, but these good deeds can all be done without religion. Our own moral guidance system has to be the judge, and when you throw in false information it changes our behavior. People are very gullible and the mob mentality is a terrible thing that needs to be overcome by removing gullibility. Stop believing in something because someone else told you it was real, and go find out for yourself. Religion has done a lot of harm to this world, and the repairs don't require more religion or different religion, or changing religion. I want people to make decisions based on what's honestly happening to them, not out of guilt, lies, deceit or self interest.

[–]Brett924 0 points1 point ago

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I was just trying to respond to your question: "If you knew your beliefs were doing harm to society, would you question your faith?"

I know that people who use words of belief and faith as reasons for evil. That does not destroy my belief, no. I would imagine that if someone used their lack of belief as a reason for evil actions, it wouldn't cause you to start believing?

[–]bokdoly 0 points1 point ago

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Your unfaith may be a blessing in disguise.

God doesn't want you to live a lie.

However, have you honored your Mother and Father as Jesus intended? Have you tried to love your enemy, or even decipher if that is or isn't possible (if you were a Christian), or what that means. If the answer is no, you haven't even attempted to do what Christians are meant to do, therefore, do you have the right to make blanket statements about religion, or Jesus?

How many times have you asked God, "Lord, I do not believe, I can not, please show me how I can?"

Without asking this, you can't say you've done all you could. If you ask and received no response, you should not believe.

[–]idwolfatheist|antitheist[S] 4 points5 points ago

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You're answering questions with questions. Instead of trying to use your brain to figure out what I'm talking about. You're sole consern is to convert me back to your faith. I can't believe in any religion. It's not possible for me to believe in things I do not see. I find comfort in statistics, knowing that people aren't killed/spared for some god's twisted reason.

You ask me questions about me practicing Christianity. How much do you know about your own faith? Have you kept your hair uncut? Do you only wear clothes that are made of one single type of material? Do you stop women from teaching in schools? This isn't about me attempting to do what "Christians" are meant to do, or your loose interpretation of the faith. You're avoiding the question, because that would mean actually thinking along the notion that this universe was created without magic... just by physics and built up energy, and inevitability. Your god, Yahweh, is the god of creation, much like the role all the Greek gods played before him. Do a little research into quantum mechanics and you'll see that he's no longer necessary.

Now the big question here is, why would I ask a god for beliefs I've deemed harmful? Or did you just skim through my post? On the same note, why don't you ask Thor for lightning? Have you tried? No way! That would be ludicrous! We know exactly where lightning comes from should be your response... ಠ_ಠ

[–]bokdoly 1 point2 points ago

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I haven't tried to convert you to anything. Contrary, I want you to find the truth for yourself, using your own framework of logic, philosophy, whatever. I am merely pointing at possible holes in reasoning, of which I am not certain.

Your assertions about my faith are not true. You are not aware of what I believe, it doesn't matter. I don't care if you are atheist or not, I would want anyone to pursue what is truth not what they perceive or want to be true, lead that to faith or not.

Why would you ask for a god you've deemed harmful? You wouldn't. It is wrong to.

The god you are certain of, is not my God. Thus, I understand your disbelief.

[–]ifihadashotgunAtheistic Existentialist 0 points1 point ago

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Contrary, I want you to find the truth for yourself, using your own framework of logic, philosophy, whatever.

This is your problem. You do not get to have your own logical framework, just like you are not entitled to your own facts.

[–]idwolfatheist|antitheist[S] 0 points1 point ago

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The god you are certain of, is not my God. Thus, I understand your disbelief.

Atheism means that I do not acknowledge the existence of any god. My perception of life is as true as one can get. If you have any questions, feel free to ask them, but there seems to be a lot of confusion as to what I actually think.

[–]bokdoly 0 points1 point ago

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Have you ever studied psychology? Perception is not the whole reality, as we are fooled into believing by perception. There is a world of the unconscious that does not register consciously, hence sub/unconscious.

This is the stuff that dreams are made of. Unhappiness in life, being unfulfilled, repressing things, first deal with these, then come back and say whether or not your perception of life is as true as one can get.

I want to say my perception of life is clearer than yours, but of that I cannot be certain. I do however strive to understand my mind, before I believe/disbelieve in my own perceptions, do you?

[–]idwolfatheist|antitheist[S] 0 points1 point ago

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We don't judge reality by our own perceptions. We judge it based on the collective knowledge of others and we test it with our own. I'll be honest. You're not making a whole lot of sense. Your ideas seem disjointed, and I'm too tired to piece the whole picture together right now. If you want to elaborate, feel free, but this is all I can give you until you explain how subconsciousness has anything to do with god. The biggest function of lower end brain activity is to keep our organs working, but subconscious thought is also what helps us with decision making. It's not some magical reverse-gateway to a god's dream. It's a system of circuits and gray matter that's completely inclosed within our bodies. You can't just make stuff up that kind of fits and then push it as truth.

[–]MisterEddycatholic 0 points1 point ago

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You are pretty far off topic.

But the question isn't asked in good faith or with good will.

Sort of like saying: atheism is the work of the devil. If you knew your non belief condemned you to hell, would you believe?

[–]Kaffbon -1 points0 points ago

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That boy needs therapy.

[–]idwolfatheist|antitheist[S] 0 points1 point ago

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This isn't helpful and it adds nothing to the conversation. You should read this.

[–]JonoLith -1 points0 points ago

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So your claim is that if something does harm to society we should get rid of it.

Very well. Shall we start with Democracy? Then once we're done with that, we should then move on to any Technology that's ever done harm. Guns, for example, bombs, iPads, clothing... hell everything really.

Then once we're standing in the wilderness, naked and without a society, then we'll just have to get rid of all these God Damned harmful humans.

[–]idwolfatheist|antitheist[S] 1 point2 points ago*

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So your claim is that if something does harm to society we should get rid of it.

Nope. That's quite a hyperbole of my explanation though. I know I was being generic, but that was on purpose to try and start conversations. Since reddit is diverse, and I have no idea what each and every person believes.

The good parts about religion, treating people nicely, gathering together for festivities, a few of the rules (if you cherry-pick out the good ones) are all possible without religion. I'm saying that believing in something that doesn't exist can be harmful to parts of society. We can keep all of the good and get rid of the stuff that doesn't make sense, unless you want to make an overly dramatic point, that is. :)

[–]JonoLith -1 points0 points ago

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Point 1: Then why force a name change? If it acts like a horse, and smells like a horse, and sounds like a horse, why call it a duck?

Point 2: Saying "Just take the good things" is fine, except it denies that humans are shitty. The intention while building any system is to make it as functional and good as possible, but humans are shitty and seek to break things down. The most obvious place to see this is any online Multi-player game. Religion exists to remind people "Hey, people are griefers."

Point 3: This has already happened in the most dangerous way possible. Walk into a Starbucks and tell me it isn't a Religion. They have ALL the signs, including a statement of faith. They call it a "mission statement." Corporations are Religious institutions whose god is Money.

[–]idwolfatheist|antitheist[S] 1 point2 points ago

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1 - I'm not sure what you're talking about with the duck analogy.

2 - "humans are shitty" is your biased opinion towards a generalization. There are many examples of strangers helping strangers. Reddit is a fantastic example of that. This also has nothing to do with the conversation since we weren't creating a new creed, I was just saying that we could take what we learned from religion and throw out the parts where it says a woman should be stoned to death if she doesn't marry the man who raped her and impregnated her... We don't need religion to be moral. Your original statement was an extreme parody of what I was talking about.

3 - I can't make heads or tails of the context to which you're referring.

[–]JonoLith -1 points0 points ago

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1 - You say "We should take the good parts of humanity and lose the rest, and call it something different." My counter to this is "Then all you've done is created good religion. Why the name change?"

2 - Humans are shitty. All of the good things humanity does are overwhelmed by the enormous amounts of shitty things it does. That's part of being human. Denying it is the height of human shittiness.

3 - I'm saying that your idea of "Take the good things" from Religion has happened already. Only it's happened to get our money. If you can tell me the difference between Starbucks and the Catholic Church, I'd love to hear it.

[–]idwolfatheist|antitheist[S] 1 point2 points ago*

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1 - You say "We should take the good parts of humanity and lose the rest, and call it something different." My counter to this is "Then all you've done is created good religion. Why the name change?"

No, I said take the good parts of religion, and throw out all the creepy cult-mindset blood drinking superstition and all the false science like souls, sin, and intelligent design. We can learn lessons from a mother goose story without believing that it's real.

2 - Humans are shitty. All of the good things humanity does are overwhelmed by the enormous amounts of shitty things it does. That's part of being human. Denying it is the height of human shittiness.

So we should give up? The cure is education. Religion stands in the way. That's oversimplifying it, of course, but it's why I am who I am.

3 - I'm saying that your idea of "Take the good things" from Religion has happened already. Only it's happened to get our money. If you can tell me the difference between Starbucks and the Catholic Church, I'd love to hear it.

They don't serve alcohol at Starbucks? Oh! And they pay taxes. :)

[–]JonoLith -1 points0 points ago

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1 - I can agree with everything you said. Still Religion. Why the name change?

2 - There is no "cure". Humans are shitty. That's the basic function of humanity. Even saying that you can find a cure denies your own personal shittiness, and saying "Education" is the cure only puts us in the mindset that we are suffering of a disease that can be cured, as opposed to simply being human.

I know it's nice to believe that all the hate and suffering in the world can someday end. I've never seen anything that remotely resembles anything you're talking about. The best humanity can do is stay vigilant against our horrible selves, and never fall into the trap of thinking that we are any less monstrous then we actually are.

That's the role of Religion.

3 - http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-23/starbucks-to-add-alcohol-at-more-cafes-to-lure-evening-customers.html

And the Catholic Church pays it's taxes just fine. Just not to the government, because it's not supposed to be beholden to governmental bodies, but act independently from them. That's the entire point of the separation of church and state that atheists seem to forget about when it works against them.

Culturally speaking; what's the difference between a religion and a corporation?