all 33 comments

[–][deleted] 45 points46 points ago

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I think one of the biggest mistakes people make is assuming the art of people always comes from personal experiences and feelings as opposed to a made up narrative or a metaphor. I've noticed that women tend to get this assumption more than men and it bothers me a bit. We don't actually think Sting from The Police is in love with a prostitute yet some people assume Polly Jean Harvey had a child and drowned it. I'd be wary of making any assumptions about Lana Del Ray's stance on feminism unless she specifically addresses it.

[–]devtesla 14 points15 points ago*

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I'd be wary of making any assumptions about Lana Del Ray's stance on feminism unless she specifically addresses it.

This, 100%. I fell in love with Video Games the first time I heard it. It's such a strange mix of melancholy and love that I can't see anyone thinking that the situation she is in is healthy. We don't know if it is her who came up with that, or her male producer, but either way I thought it was really good.

Now, her vulnerable state is eroticised, to the point where the creepy undertones might come from the problematic place her critics think it's from, so I would not be surprised if something happens that makes me fall out of love with her. But at first sight, I love it, and I assume the best.

Edit: oh jesus just watched that SNL performance. If that was your first introduction to her, well yea, you'd hate her. That was baddddd.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points ago*

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I fell in love with Video Games the first time I heard it.

Same here. I love the song. I do not personally hate Del Ray, but I have noticed a feminist backlash against her recently, and I'm trying to figure that out.

I do think her lyrics read as creepy and her references to herself as "like Dolores Haze" from Nabokov's Lolita (one of her songs is named Lolita, and talks about the female character in the thematic arc of the album manipulating the older male character) does read as strange to me, but I am withholding judgment for now, as I'm confused. That's why I thought it would be worthwhile to have a discussion since I am torn.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points ago

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I don't have much of an opinion about Del Ray (I watched about a minute of her on SNL before deciding I wasn't interested), but the appropriation of Lolita is a huge creep factor for me. I've read the book three or four times and like you mentioned in your OP Dolores is a rape victim. Lana is obviously not the first person to glamorize the character in this way but I can't help but be a bit weirded out by it.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points ago

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When most people refer to Lolita, they are not actually talking about the character of Dolores. Instead, they use the name as a catchall for a sexually precocious girl. Del Ray has been very specific that she is referring to Dolores Haze, the literary character. It is, to me, the strangest aspect of her marketing strategy.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points ago

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I've read that good fiction makes the normal seem strange or new to us, and I suppose the corollary, that it can also make the strange seem normal, is what Nabokov was shooting for in Lolita.

The fact that it's become a cultural reference and marketing term, and the book itself was a best-seller, indicates that he succeeded.

Lolita is so repugnant, in part, to me, because it's well-written and convinces a significant number of readers to accept the humanity of the monster telling us the story.

As for why Del Rey references it, it's all rolled into the schtick.

Imagine Male Gaze is a laser. The person Lana Del Rey used to be is big hunk of marble, unformed and unshaped. The laser of male gaze has rendered the figure of Lana Del Rey out of that unformed/unshaped thing. That's what she was trying to do, to show us what she thinks that would actually look like out and about, singing songs.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points ago

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Imagine Male Gaze is a laser. The person Lana Del Rey used to be is big hunk of marble, unformed and unshaped. The laser of male gaze has rendered the figure of Lana Del Rey out of that unformed/unshaped thing. That's what she was trying to do, to show us what she thinks that would actually look like out and about, singing songs.

This makes a lot of sense to me. Thank you for contributing this. So, you think the "point" of the Lana Del Ray character is performance art based around the concept of "male gaze". So, you espouse the idea that her album is a critique of the concepts in it?

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points ago

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aowno. I haven't listened to anything but Video Games, but the video, the song's lyrics, her presentation all kind of point to that thing to me. I think the Paz de la Huerta footage is allllllllll about that. A woman who is famous for being looked at being shepherded around like a child because she's over-intoxicated. The starlet and all the male minders around her. The camera catching the unmediated part of her, and she's still long and graceful and beautiful but also just like, sooooo fucked up.

I think there's probably more layers to it, or rather it's less focused as just "male gaze," but the starlet thing is pretty much just a less direct way of getting at the same thing. If there were publicists and such involved, then it was probably sold as "reclaiming the old Hollywood mystique while pre-seeding and identity tied to modern Hollywood bad girl behavior". Something like that.

edit: I would not be surprised if the person Lana Del Rey really is was in the midst of saying "Well what next?" after a mediocre response to her initial "sincere" release, which was doing some Lana Del Reyesque things, but less focused, still winking and nodding along to the listener, not wholly committed. A simple understanding could be to say she saw the Paz de la Huerta footage and said "I'm gonna write songs in character as her" and just went with it.

I knew there was money behind the whole thing after the third or fourth time I saw the video because I realized she had to have licensed that footage, and it would not have been cheap to do so. So the stories about her millionaire dad kind of make sense.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points ago*

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I've noticed that women tend to get this assumption more than men and it bothers me a bit.

This is an interesting point, and I agree with you that female musicians do get more critique in this way than male ones. Why do you think this happens?

EDIT: I don't exactly have an opinion on Del Ray yet, but I do want to discuss this.

[–][deleted] 11 points12 points ago

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I'm not entirely sure. My assumption is that people take women's work both professional and creative less seriously so in a creative setting the assumption is that "she doesn't have the imaginative capacity for that, it must be a personal experience." There's also a bit of a taboo when it comes to women talking about disturbing topics which could stem from a variety of mindsets and norms. Ultimately what I think it boils down to is the unequal way men and womens work is valued and appreciated as.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points ago

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I get what you're saying. This Esquire piece that I linked above is entirely dedicated to the "female singer" and it kind of offended me. One choice quote:

Like all other worlds these days, the world of female singers has become riven and divisive. The divide is so large that it's not merely a matter of style anymore; rather, the female voice itself seems to have been split in half. On the radio, there are the booming divas singing of empowerment and revenge with their mechanistic melismata; in the drizzly samizdat of what used to be called indie rock, there are the wan wastrels, the massed legions breathily pleading for us not to hurt them. Once it seemed that every great girl singer was capable of generating her own style and fomenting her own revolution; now female singers seem bound to make a choice between sounding like precocious 12-year-olds keeping secrets or, well, like machines, complete with auto-tuning.

All that said, I do think that Lana Del Ray IS being marketed in a very specific and unsettling way. Lizzy Grant is NOT Lana Del Ray, just as Stephani Germanotta, for example, is NOT Lady GaGa. Lady GaGa is a character that Stefani Germnotta plays in order to send a message about the depersonalization and commodification of human beings as pop singers. So, what is Lizzy Grant trying to do by playing the character of Lana Del Ray?

[–]oenoneablaze 4 points5 points ago*

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If we're to see Del Rey as a feminist figure in the same way we see GaGa, we'd have to accept that her character was created consciously and the unambiguously objectionable passages that you've cited were included as an effort to shock some subset of listeners in some way into thinking critically about them. Somehow, I don't really see this as the most likely scenario. I see very little condemnation of the kinds of infantilization and disempowerment you identify; it seems more like imitation than it does parody. Both Lana Del Rey and Lizzy Grant are conventionally attractive. Del Rey is not challenging conventional sensibilities about attractiveness in taking on her character. She is succeeding in two ways, though—she has achieved, by economic metrics, success in the music business, and she has done so through succeeding in creating a narrative of (as distinct from being) a hypersexualized, submissive woman. Does the first follow the second because it tickles conventional straight males' sensibilities in the exact right place, or because feminists are flocking to her personal empowerment in doing so? Probably the former, though I suppose it doesn't invalidate the latter, since it is, by all accounts, happening.

So assuming she is not doing a conscious critique we could, however, accept Liz Phair's explanation—it seems that Phair has looked at the character of Lana Del Rey and drawn parallels between Del Rey's experiences and those of her own rise to fame. She appreciates a certain willfulness and agency to what she identifies as Rey's challenge to a male-dominated field, "writing herself into existence" and being a "woman wanting and taking like a man." Dzodan seems to concur, positing that even consciously becoming a "sexy plaything" and molding yourself into objectified tropes is itself a form of empowerment. This is more problematic, right? Do we fetishize a woman's agency, or is the value of the agency corrupted when it acts to reinforce negative values and primes others to view women in a certain light? It's kind of a mixed bag, and broadly slapping on labels of "anti-feminist" or "feminist" becomes very difficult.

I don't think Del Rey is particularly feminist—I think in what may be her promotion of an image of unironic reinforcement of 50s tropes, she's certainly antifeminist. However, I also think that many of the attacks on her have been quite anti-feminist—she is a woman expressing her agency, perhaps for the wrong reason, but some of the narratives included in the attacks on her (she bought her way to fame; stuff about lip injections) are distinctively antifeminist in character and quite objectionable, and I think that's what Phair and Dzodan in part latch onto—the image of another woman attempting to achieve success beleaguered yet again by sexism. I don't think this makes her a savior or immensely positive figure in herself, though—if a man were to idolize the a Lana Del Rey-type character in music or art, wouldn't we rightfully decry him as sexist?

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points ago

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If we're to see Del Rey as a feminist figure in the same way we see GaGa, we'd have to accept that her character was created consciously and the unambiguously objectionable passages that you've cited were included as an effort to shock some subset of listeners in some way into thinking critically about them.

From what I can tell based on the articles I've read about her, Lana Del Ray is a character created consciously by a group of marketers and producers. Lizzy Grant released an album in 2008 and then pulled that album from the Internet, and returned four years later as a new artist called Lana Del Ray. Whether or not she is intended to be a feminist character or not is undecided (I'm thinking she is not), but she IS definitely a character of some sort.

However, I also think that many of the attacks on her have been quite anti-feminist

I agree. The articles posted about her at Jezebel, for example, are absolutely atrocious. Since when are feminist blogs dedicated to picking apart the appearance of female singers that they judged to be unworthy, for whatever reason?

[–]WOODOOWOOT 6 points7 points ago

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If I made a list of the top 5000 feminist blogs, Jezebel wouldn't even come close to breaking into the number 5000 spot.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points ago

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Are they even considered feminist anymore?

[–]mysteryunfurled 0 points1 point ago

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Only by MRAs.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points ago

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She is doing a performance piece about Male Gaze, I think.

That's what I got from "Video Games". Everything is about him ("it's you it's you it's you it's you it's everything i do/tell you all the time/heaven is a place on earth where you/tell me all the things you wanna do") and her in his favorite sun dress, her telling him to go play his video games.

She's doing a "what if the fantasy was real" kind of thing.

[–]smart4301 1 point2 points ago

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This is an interesting point, and I agree with you that female musicians do get more critique in this way than male ones. Why do you think this happens?

They're less likely to end up at the front of bands. This does happen to men who sing solo, although I don't follow that kind of music enough to compare frequency.

Band lyrics are often written as groups, and there's less of an implied connection between a specific individual and the would-be implications of what people refuse to treat as art because of the commercial context in which it's delivered.

If that sentence was too much pretension to take in in one go, I'll try and rephrase.

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points ago

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According to Lana Del Rey herself, the song Video Games is about personal experiences:

“The verse was about the way things were with one person, and the chorus was the way that I wished things had really been with another person, who I thought about for a long time."

So, yeah, at least some of these songs ARE about her personal experiences.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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I agree with you on some points but my issue is a lot of people look at the work simply at face value with no sense of interpretation, thus people taking Down By the Water literally and thinking she's a murderer. I don't think writing about personal experiences is any better or worse than writing about concepts but while a good portion of her music seems autobiographical, that doesn't mean all the tropes and literary devices she uses are simply what happened. Basically a lot of people take female artists at face value more so than their male counterparts.

[–]yakityyakblah 3 points4 points ago

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This concept is pretty much a requirement in the metal genre.

[–]croc_lobster 1 point2 points ago

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Actually, learning that Sting was a schoolteacher before he was a rock star really gets me squigged out when I listen to "Don't Stand Too Close To Me." It's a good point, but poor example.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

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Yeah, he's always denied that song has any basis in truth, but it certainly hasn't stopped people from speculating.

[–]masagoroll 10 points11 points ago

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Interesting part of the Guardian article linked:

Del Rey found success when she started writing her own pop songs, though when asked if she writes alone her voice goes hard and she says: "If there's a man in the room when you write he gets 50%." It's a nearly true indictment of the frosty world of music royalties, but also an indication of her steeliness.

[–]smart4301 2 points3 points ago

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"Add a word, take a third"

[–]filo4000 7 points8 points ago

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I don't know, I really don't want to poo on your thread but personally for me I am just very tired scrutinizing women performers. If that's what she wants to sing & market herself whatever, sounds good to me

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points ago

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If this post was an attack on her body or on her as a human being, I might feel a little differently about it. Instead, this is about her art, which is as far as I am aware open to criticism and speculation.

[–]preveyt 5 points6 points ago

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I got her CD last week and yeah, pretty much every song is about her longing for a guy and her attachment to him, but does that really make her antifeminist? So many other artists sing about loved ones in the same sort of mildly obsessive manner. I think the anti-feminist critique is directed at her in particular just because so many people hate her for other reasons and it gives them more ammunition.

I'm not sure if the accusations that she bought her way to fame are part of the antifeminist critique, but if so that's hilarious.

[–]dadagod 1 point2 points ago

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In a world with so much music choice, I think it's unfortunate so many [smart] people nonetheless choose crap. Lana Del Ray is crap.

Want smart, feminist music? Listen to Meshell Ndegeocello. Fuck, listen to MEN, listen to Bikini Kill, maybe even Purity Ring.

Lana Del Ray is blog bait. Nothing more, nothing less.

[–]BZenMojo 2 points3 points ago

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I've only listened to Video Games, and only briefly, but in those twenty seconds I assumed there was more anger in her words than passivity.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points ago

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Please elaborate.

[–]denvertutors 1 point2 points ago

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I am absolutely lost as to why LDR is even getting the press she does. So there was a name/gimmick change. So what?

David Bowie -> Ziggy Stardust -> Thin White Duke -> David Bowie.

David Johansen -> Buster Poindexter.

Tori Amos -> that "Strange Little Girls" album.

Madonna.

Personally, I find the songs have enough energy sucked out of them to fit as the filler in NPR news shows. As an art product, it does nothing for me. I guess it resonates somehow, as it's being reported on.

This whole thing feels like astroturfing, like the media critics are forcing this artist to be A Thing when she wasn't able to build a fanbase on her own merits and performances. I don't begrudge her current buzz, but I also don't understand how she earned it in the first place.

[–]ToxtethOGrady 0 points1 point ago

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Is it OK if I hijack this thread to post a link to Maura Johnston's "How Not To Write About Female Musicians: A Handy Guide."