all 195 comments

[–]fingusPie Knight 127 points128 points ago

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Howland Reed will pop out of a particularly soggy patch of ground with a birth certificate and a highly detailed monologue.

[–]Anjin 107 points108 points ago

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Which will immediately be called into question because he neglects to bring the more detailed "long-form" certificate spawning Westeros' own birther movement...

[–]galkardm 10 points11 points ago

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I can only imagine Varys or Littlefinger putting on a fake rug and going to Greywater Watch to investigate.

[–]shamrock8421 16 points17 points ago

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I love how R+L=J has become the new "where's Obama's birth certificate?" of the internet

[–]goldenpandora 2 points3 points ago

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I wish I could upvote you more than once. A minimum five times would be appropriate.

[–]lordhadriHazel-rah 45 points46 points ago

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I have no idea when, how, or even if Jon Snow will ever find out. Bran probably will find out. The only way for it to become official knowledge is if Howland Reed says so, and that may or may not turn out to be important depending on where Jon's character is going.

[–][deleted] 28 points29 points ago

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i think benjen stark could know as well, he was closest to his sister

[–]elcollin 0 points1 point ago

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Was he not already at The Wall when this went down?

[–]geruszMaester of Barrowden 15 points16 points ago

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No, Benjen was the youngest brother. He was way too young then.

I think Benjen took the black around the time when Bran was born.

[–]elcollin 1 point2 points ago

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Ah, right you are.

[–]teraluz 4 points5 points ago

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Benjen was in Winterfell during the Rebellion, there must always be a Stark at Winterfell and all that.

[–]I_MAKE_USERNAMESThe Dragontamer 6 points7 points ago

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I thought that was when Tony was there?

[–]GyantSpyderHeir Bud 4 points5 points ago

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No that was later. That was when John Starks was there. He went like 3 for 20 in the biggest battle of the war, it was a real disappointment.

[–]bushysmalls 3 points4 points ago

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Don't know why but this post made me think of a "Stark Week" on Animal Planet..

[–]I_MAKE_USERNAMESThe Dragontamer 2 points3 points ago

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There must always be a Knick in Winterfell.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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no hes the youngest of the starks, and i believe a disagreement about jon is what drove him there. Edit: i bet jon finds a dying bejen who will direct himt o howland reed

[–]SailingSeasofRum 14 points15 points ago

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I've always assumed Jojen and Meera knew. I seem to recall them hinting at the fact. Howland seems to trust his children. I don't seem why he wouldn't tell them. They are in the North, they could relay it to Jon fairly easily. Assuming Jon can still hear it.

They seemed especially surprised that Bran had never heard the story of the tournament IIRC.

[–]Quazifuji 10 points11 points ago

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They seemed especially surprised that Bran had never heard the story of the tournament IIRC.

Although the most popular theory about that is that Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree and defended Howland's honor, which would serve as a complete explanation without anything about Jon's parentage. That's also not nearly as huge a secret to reveal to his children as R+L=J would be.

[–]SailingSeasofRum 0 points1 point ago

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At the end of that tale they mention the she-wolf being declared the queen of love and beauty and that being a sadder tale. They may not know anything besides what everyone knows, but considering their father knows, why not?

Howland Reed is a crannogman and we know almost nothing about them, except that they are hidden swamp guerillas and they know ancient lore. Maybe he doesn't keep secrets from his family, or maybe he can't. (Jojen is a greenseer)

I'd love to hear more about them. They are one of my favorite groups in the series.

[–]Quazifuji 2 points3 points ago

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Howland Reed might not keep secrets from them, but R+L=J is a pretty huge secret. I mean, if it's true, then Ned trusted no one in his family, not even Catelyn, with it (or, alternatively, Lyanna made him promise to never tell anyone, and he kept the promise).

I believe GRRM has confirmed that Howland Reed will show up eventually. He also said he'll never get a PoV because he knows too much. So he clearly knows something big, whether it's Jon's parentage or something else. I would hope at least the mystery of the moving castle gets solved too. It seems pointless to mention the concept but never explain it unless the explanation will be a big reveal later.

[–]SailingSeasofRum 8 points9 points ago

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Yes. I'd also like to learn more about Howland's moving castle. ;)

[–]1eejitFreerider 1 point2 points ago

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Ned promised Lyanna to keep the secret, we don't know of Reed making any such promise.

[–]Quazifuji 1 point2 points ago

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We don't know that Ned promised her that even. All we know is Ned promised her something, and if R+L=J then that would be an obvious prmised.

Howland didn't necessarily make any such promised, but it's still a huge secret. I mean, we're talking info that could cause/amplify war all over Westeros if it got out. He might trust his kids with that, but it's still a lot bigger than Lyanna being the Knight of the Laughing Tree.

[–]LaceyLovesBox -1 points0 points ago

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I see what you did there... "Assuming Jon and still hear it."

[–]LikeAgaveFSword of the Morning[!] 1 point2 points ago

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Why are we assuming that Howland Reed is the only person left who knows if that theory is correct? Surely there could be others who know.

[–]Turin_The_Mormegil 10 points11 points ago

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The only known survivors of the Tower of Joy are Ned and Howland Reed. If Ned didn't tell Catelyn (and thereby avoid her forever hating Jon- or possibly tattling to Robert), then it's unlikely that he told anyone else.

[–]LikeAgaveFSword of the Morning[!] 8 points9 points ago

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Why are we limiting this to only people attached to Ned? Why couldn't someone attached to the Targaryens know about it?

[–]Turin_The_Mormegil 3 points4 points ago

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How many members of the Targaryen court are still alive? Connington was exiled before Jon was born, and most of the Targs themselves are dead.

[–]ScousePie 11 points12 points ago

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Varys?

[–]Turin_The_Mormegil 8 points9 points ago

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Touche. Still, he seems to have put many of his eggs in the Aegon basket. Though I suppose that, to Varys, Aegon is a known quantity, whereas Jon is both an unknown and currently committed to the Watch.

I feel like HBO's casting choice for Aegon might serve as a hint. Seeing as he's theoretically John's half-brother, they should bear some physical resemblance.

[–]bapzannigan 8 points9 points ago

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We better get to find out about Jon's parents before season 6 of game of thrones.

I always thought that Varys' motivation is not Targaryen loyalty, but a wish to place a good king on the throne. He tells Kevan that they raised Aegon to be the perfect king. He is just, educated, skilled militarily and in touch with the common people. Jon has not gone through the Varys and Illyrio King Finishing School and therefore Varys has no use for him.

[–]ZeroV2 5 points6 points ago

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Keeping The Mad King on the throne wasn't a very good choice for placing (in this case, keeping) a good king on the throne. Obviously Aerys was terrible, and it seemed to everyone that Rhaegar was fucking awesome, but Varys was the one who told Aerys to attend the tournament where Rhaegar was going to be discussing potentially overthrowing his father in some manner.

[–]elusivecreatureSword!-bearer 3 points4 points ago

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Check out the Blackfyre theories about the "mummer's dragon". Aegon might not really be the Aegon. Varys' motivations may also be why he shaves his head...

[–]bapzannigan 0 points1 point ago

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I know the Blackfyre theories, but I think the Illyrio's son theory is more plausible. It might be that Serra is a Blackfyre, but it could also be that she was just a whore with silver hair.

[–]AMerrickanGirl 2 points3 points ago

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educated, skilled militarily and in touch with the common people

Well, so is Jon. Eddard Stark trained his sons well.

[–]ZachPruckowski 1 point2 points ago

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Most of Jon's ADWD chapters seemed to me to be a audition for the role of King, and definitely showed that the Jon Snow of ADWD wasn't the boy who was dragged back to the Night's Watch by his friends in AGoT.

[–]Khalku 0 points1 point ago

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Season 7 probably. Book 3 will be 2 seasons (that's 4 in total), and I'm expecting AFFC and ADWD to be either 2 or 3 seasons (probably 3, a lot happens even though it's split up) which is 7 tops. It could be 6, but I think it'll be 3 seasons for book 4 and 5 together.

Also, Varys COULD use some dragons...

[–]KingoftheMoonF3 5 points6 points ago

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Eh, maybe, but I wouldn't bank on it. They're gonna go for acting ability over physical resemblance, so any similarities are going to be incidental.

[–]kodutta7 3 points4 points ago

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The casting point is moot, I think. I mean, Sean Bean looks very little like a typical stark as described by GRRM, they should look more like the actor who plays Benjen, but they go for who will play the role more than who looks the part. Even Jon Snow doesn't really looks how he was supposed to, they mention several times in the books that he's clean shaven, and he's supposed to have sharp northern features.

[–]Quazifuji 1 point2 points ago

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Touche. Still, he seems to have put many of his eggs in the Aegon basket. Though I suppose that, to Varys, Aegon is a known quantity, whereas Jon is both an unknown and currently committed to the Watch.

I'm not sure if that matters. If Varys is actually just trying to serve the realm, then he's supporting Aegon not because he's a Targaryen but because he's been raised to be a good king since birth. If he's a Targaryen loyalist, then Jon is at best second in line after Aegon if he's trueborn, and not even on the radar if he's a bastard. If he's a Blackfyre loyalist, then obviously he doesn't care much about Jon.

I feel like HBO's casting choice for Aegon might serve as a hint. Seeing as he's theoretically John's half-brother, they should bear some physical resemblance.

I doubt it. It's not like Dany or Viserys resembled Jon at all, despite being his aunt and uncle. Aegon will look like a Targaryen (with died blue hair, initially). Jon looks like a Stark, enough that no one's ever suspected him of being anything else.

[–]_F12 0 points1 point ago

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How could he be trueborn? Wasn't Rhaegar married at the time to Elia Martell? Unless I'm missing something, he's a bastard unless legitimised.

On that note, if Jon had been legitimised by Stannis (or any other king) does the evidence suggest that it would apply regardless of his true parentage? Would Jon have been officially a Targaryen (if R+L=J)?

[–]Quazifuji 0 points1 point ago

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How could he be trueborn? Wasn't Rhaegar married at the time to Elia Martell? Unless I'm missing something, he's a bastard unless legitimised.

Some people believe Rhaegar may have married Lyanna in secret at some point, and that based on the precedent set by Aegon the Conqueror (and possibly other Targaryens since then, I'm not sure), the polygamy would still be legitimate and children produced by the second marriage would be considered trueborn. I don't know if this is the case, though - I'm pretty sure polygamy was not common among the Targaryens like incest, and, like incest, I assume it was frowned upon when it happened even if no one actively fought it - and the fact that Targaryens are no longer (currently) sitting the Iron Throne with dragons to destroy anyone who objects means it's likely even if Targaryen polygamy had been accepted in the past people wouldn't accept Jon as legitimate even if Rhaegar and Lyanna had married.

Personally, I'm inclined to agree with you and say that Jon is a bastard either way, but there are people who believe he's actually the trueborn son of Rhaegar and Lyanna (or at least that it's a possibility).

On that note, if Jon had been legitimised by Stannis (or any other king) does the evidence suggest that it would apply regardless of his true parentage? Would Jon have been officially a Targaryen (if R+L=J)?

I have no idea. I assume if Stannis declared Jon to be Jon Stark then he'd be Jon Stark, but I don't know if that's actually how it works. It's possible if it turned out his father was actually a Targaryen then he'd suddenly become a Targaryen, or that the revelation would invalidate the former legitimization and he'd go back to being Jon Snow unless Stannis specifically declared that the legitimization stays and he is now Jon Targaryen.

[–]bushysmalls 1 point2 points ago

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Barristan, Varys and, although I'm not sure how well he would fit and no one seems to mention, JAIME might have some inkling of what was going down. Wasn't he a member of the Kingsguard for a while before Rhaegar and Aerys died?

[–]Higher_Primate 4 points5 points ago

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Do they ever say why Ned didn't tell cat? Couldn't he trust her?

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–]detenUnbowed, Unbent, Onions 2 points3 points ago

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And we know ned is a man of honor

[–]bushysmalls 1 point2 points ago

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was*

[–]grindcore4lyfe 0 points1 point ago

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Unless he warged into that nasty cat

[–]Turin_The_Mormegil 4 points5 points ago

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He barely knew her. The first time he met her was his wedding day.

[–]Higher_Primate 2 points3 points ago

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Ya but after awhile wouldn't it of been better to let her know "hey you dont have to be a bitch to this kid, hes not actually mine"

[–]Turin_The_Mormegil 7 points8 points ago

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Perhaps. Most likely he didn't want any chance of Robert finding out. Fourteen years later Robert still has a hard-on for killing Targaryens.

[–]polynomialsWhite Harbor Wolf 2 points3 points ago

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Also, she might not have reacted well by finding out that they were housing a Targaryen with a claim to the throne in their home. What with the treason accusations and whatnot. Catelyn would probably think that's not cool for a number of reasons.

[–]mjb972 4 points5 points ago

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But this was actually in all likelihood the best way for Ned to keep Jon's real parentage a secret from everyone. People see and know how Catelyn treats Jon and this keeps a great deal of doubt from ever being cast upon on him. I feel like Ned in his most self-destructive feat of honor refused to burden Cat with the truth and force her to lie and act to protect Jon. You could almost call what he did selfish, using Cat to hide this secret, but I think in the end he thought it the most honorable thing to do.

[–]Quazifuji 1 point2 points ago

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The main evidence that he didn't tell her is her dislike for Jon. If she knew he wasn't actually Ned's bastard, then she wouldn't have any reason to treat him as horribly as she does.

Ned's promise to Lyanna is the most common theory as to why he wouldn't have told her.

[–]halosp101 0 points1 point ago

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Everyone forgets Benjen, it's highly likely he knew. He is 'missing' and presumed Lost, he's on an Island .............. Skaggos. "Show me the body".

EDIT: I see the kentuckykid beat me to this .......

Eddard would have told Robb before he went South and Robb recorded it in his Will (probably already mentioned as well).

[–]grindcore4lyfe 0 points1 point ago

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Coldhands

[–]BLUE_WAFFLE_GANGRAPE 88 points89 points ago

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I think it's going to have something to do with Howland Reed and/or Bran's "see-everything-everywhen-because-I'm-a-fucking-tree-god" abilities. Either way, I really like the idea that Jon won't find out. I feel like that would fit with GRRM's love for tragedy and the general feel of the series. Quite a few central characters will probably find out, but Jon won't. Either that, or he'll find out on his deathbed, which would provide closure for his character in a really romantic and potentially beautiful way.

[–]WagnerousA Cat of a Different Coat 35 points36 points ago

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Up voted for "see-everything-everywhen-because-I'm-a-fucking-tree-god."

[–]Rudesisdelicious 4 points5 points ago

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well said, BLUE_WAFFLE_GANGRAPE

[–]Rebelius 7 points8 points ago

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I read this and thought "what is a gan grape" and shuddered at the memory of the blue waffle picture.

[–]noahboddy 0 points1 point ago

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I read that and thought to myself "A gan grape would surely be gan green, not blue."

[–]Rebelius 3 points4 points ago

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Jon's already dead though.

[–]KandoTorThe Sword in the Darkness 23 points24 points ago

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Oh, you think he's dead, do you?

[–]the_daymanClout in the ear 6 points7 points ago

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Of course he's dead, just like Cat, Beric, Sandor...

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–]I_MAKE_USERNAMESThe Dragontamer 2 points3 points ago

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Except it never said he died. Sustained likely fatal wounds for sure though.

[–]shm1989 4 points5 points ago

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Melisandre's fiery kiss... Like Beric, like Catelyn... It's soo set up.

[–]grindcore4lyfe 0 points1 point ago

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Warged

[–]ThaCarterDunk the Lunk, Thick as a Castle Wall 27 points28 points ago

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I think Howland Reed probably factors into an additional option for a reveal, although I'm not quite sure how it would play out. I suppose it wouldn't be impossible for it to come from Meera / Jojen as well.

[–]MinneapolisNick 13 points14 points ago

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Howland Reed is the only way I see it happening. Why even have him exist in the series if not for this purpose?

[–]Arthur_DayneSword of the Morning ☄[S] 16 points17 points ago

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Why even have him exist in the series if not for this purpose?

He doesn't exist - at least not onscreen. Offscreen, he may exist for the simple purpose of being the father of Jojen and Meera (both important charaters) and for being the man who saved Ned Stark at the Tower of Joy.

[–]bumblingbagel8Brotherhood Without Banners 4 points5 points ago

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GRRM has said he will appear, though obviously things could've changed since he said this in 2002.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1270/

Question 3: It had been stated that Howland Reed would come out in The Winds of Winter, which is the 5th book. Will he still come in the 5th book (A Dance with Dragon)?

Answer: He will appear eventually.

Suggested here in 2003- http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Torcon_Toronto_Canada_August_28_September_1/ when he says that Reed will never have a POV but on its own the statement can be dismissed as just using Reed as an example.

[–]Quazifuji 6 points7 points ago

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Some people will never be POVs: Littlefinger, Varys, Howland Reed, and others who know too much.

I think the most interesting thing these isn't that Howland Reed will appear, but the fact the he knows too much. This is the only theory that exists (to my knowledge) that involves Howland Reed knowing something huge - it seems clear that something major that we don't know about but that Howland does must have happened during the rebellion, whether it's R+L=J or not.

[–]KingoftheMoonF3 2 points3 points ago

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True, but as a writer you don't introduce a character and have him referenced so many times without having some plan for him. GRRM goes out of his way to establish that Howland Reed was Ned's best friend, not just some Lord who served him.

[–]Quazifuji 1 point2 points ago

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I don't think he was Ned's best friend (pretty sure Robert would serve that role), but he was definitely one of his most loyal supporters, as well as the only other Tower of Joy survivor. "Why have him exist?" is a silly question, but "why build him up so much?" isn't. It's the same reason for the theories behind Ashara Dayne, to some extent: there's been more effort into describing the character than you'd expect for someone who's had as little a role as those two have had so far.

[–]claytoncash 0 points1 point ago

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I think its pretty clearly implied that Reed was his best friend aside from Robert, IIRC.

[–]Quazifuji 0 points1 point ago

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I don't remember, it might have been. I wasn't sure if they had a real friendship like Ned had with Robert or if it was more just that their experiences in war together (as well as the secrets Howland knows, since he definitely knows something big, whether it's R+L=J or something else) formed a bond between them.

[–]polynomialsWhite Harbor Wolf 0 points1 point ago

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I don't know about best friends, I think Robert was his best friend. But it is true- a lot of people called the Baby Aegon reveal because Jon Connington's name kept coming up as having been a loyalist, but GRRM never exactly said what happened to him. It was odd that he kept getting brought up when he was apparently not relevant to anything going on in the present day. So people thought...hmmm this guy must be relevant somehow...so he must show up at some point...one thing leads to another, he probably has baby Aegon with him. I also noticed the same thing happened in the tales of Dunk and Egg. Bloodraven is repeatedly mentioned throughout the first two stories and then he shows up at the end of Mystery Knight. So yeah, I think Howie falls in this category as well; he has been referenced too many times to not show up in some capacity.

[–]KingoftheMoonF3 0 points1 point ago

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Yeah, I looked it up, and it was "staunchest companion," not best friend. Still though, that plus specifically being mentioned as the reason Ned survived to Tower of Joy makes him a shoe-in for an appearance.

And I reeeeeally wanna see Greywater Watch and find out if it does, in fact, move.

[–]TheCodeJanitorSave the Kingdom to Win the Throne 1 point2 points ago

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There are theories that Jojen actually is Howland. Which makes the theory that Jojen is eaten by Bran even more sucky.

I don't know if I believe either theory, but Howland is definitely mysteriously absent from the series so far.

[–]SlasherXWinter is Coming 3 points4 points ago

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what the hell kind of theory is that

[–]TheCodeJanitorSave the Kingdom to Win the Throne 0 points1 point ago

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It's not a single theory, it's two theories.

First, a lot of people believe Jojen is ground up into the Weirwood paste that Bran eats in ADWD. The argument is that when Bran eats it (and claims a blood-like appearance/taste), Jojen has not been heard from for a while. The entire time they're heading north, Jojen keeps feeling more and more dread and seems to be feeling his death coming soon.

The other theory is that Jojen is actually Howland. The reasoning is that he generally seems wise beyond his years. Meera is very obedient to him, despite being older. There's a few other reasons.

I don't necessarily believe either theory, but a lot of people do. I was just combining them and saying that it would suck if Bran ate Howland.

[–]polynomialsWhite Harbor Wolf 0 points1 point ago

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Jojen = Howland is actually not as far fetched as I originally thought. I agree with the people in that thread is that the reverse aging thing "makes a weird sort of sense". It sort of answers a question I've had- Howland is a Stark bannerman. Why didn't he show up to fight with Robb? Why did he send his kids to Winterfell and not go himself?

But how is it possible? I think there are several indicators that Howland is in on "Old God" magic. He is apparently the Knight of the Laughing Tree, indicating that he has taken a weirwood as sigil as a mystery knight. It is said that the crannogmen remained much closer to the Children of the Forest over the millenia than the other men, and that the crannogmen and Howland in particular are "little", possibly alluding even to interbreeding. His apparent son Jojen, gets the greendreams. Hence Howland is a good candidate for someone who knows and is possibly able to teach others a good deal about old god magic. It is even suspected that Howland is a warg and used this power to save Ned at the Tower of Joy.

It stands to reason, then, Howland could know or be affected by magics that affect his aging. Much of the magic of the old gods seems to be concerned with death, decay, preservation. It isn't impossible that Howland discovered some way, perhaps inadvertently, to reverse or alter his aging process. How that would happen? It would probably have something to do with human sacrifice.

[–]gazer89The Knight of Ninestars 0 points1 point ago

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Source please!!!!

[–]TheCodeJanitorSave the Kingdom to Win the Throne 0 points1 point ago

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[–]uselessdegreeIs death so very sweet? 11 points12 points ago

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A million times this. And I honestly think that Rickon isn't on Skagos, that he and Osha went south and found the Reeds.

[–]JonCasterlyLiberator of the North 3 points4 points ago

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I have never considered that before, pretty interesting thought.

[–]uselessdegreeIs death so very sweet? 1 point2 points ago

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To me, at least, it's one of the clearest ways to get the story about what actually happened at the Tower of Joy and the most seamless way to bring Howland Reed into the story.

[–]QuirkyGroundhog 10 points11 points ago

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Being at the Tower of Joy he very well may have been there for "Promise me, Ned."

[–]QuillandTankard 15 points16 points ago

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Starfall was probably the first place Ned went with Jon Snow, and the first place he lied about being Jon Snow's father. Wylla serves at Starfall now, but she might not have lived at Starfall her entire life. Remember, the people at Starfall believe that she's Jon Snow's mother. Perhaps she arrived at Starfall for the first time with Ned, or perhaps she was well-travelled enough to make it plausible that she and Ned had a child.

Whatever the case, if we're interested in confirming Jon Snow's ancestry, we should be very interested in Wylla's story. Ashara Dayne probably didn't know any more than anyone else at Starfall does now (unless she actually did fake her own death, in which case all bets are off).

[–]glycyrrhizin 7 points8 points ago

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Perhaps she arrived at Starfall for the first time with Ned, or perhaps she was well-travelled enough to make it plausible that she and Ned had a child.

That's the version I'm most inclined to believe. People at Starfall wouldn't believe her to be the mother if she were there all the time and didn't meet Ned and didn't have a baby which was then taken by Ned. It's much more likely she was Lyanna's servant, midwife or wetnurse brought to ToJ for the baby (the rest of ASOIAF is way too realistic for me to believe that there were exactly three people with Lyanna there. Did they deliver the baby? Took care of it while she lay dying? Bottlefed it? I know it was just Val with Dalla, but still...), who arrived at Starfall and was then taken into service in the castle, agreeing to keep up the lie the baby was hers. It's not like lying about that cost her much, and for all we know she might have become attached to it enough to assure its safety (see: Gilly, although in her case it required a huge sacrifice on her part, something which probably wasn't the case for Wylla).

[–]bohemondsDam the Chequy! 7 points8 points ago

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I think the same thing. It makes a lot of sense for Wylla to have been a servant of Lyanna's; it's also the simplest answer to quite a few questions (why would Wylla lie, why wasn't there anyone to help Lyanna at the ToJ).

There's still the question of how Wylla would ever interact with Jon, or even interact with a character who would then convey her story to Jon. But I do think that Wylla probably knows the truth.

[–]TyraCosby 4 points5 points ago

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Gods bless Wylla.

And her tits.

[–]QuillandTankard 4 points5 points ago

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Me too. In his first chapter, Ned recalls that 'they' found him crying at Lyanna's deathbed; I'm almost certain that the 'they' includes both Howland Reed and Wylla. Whether Wylla was already at the tower to help Lyanna or travelled to the tower with Ned and his companions, I think we can safely assume that she agreed to help protect Jon Snow's identity.

[–]doormatt26Son and Heir 0 points1 point ago

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I would think Arthur Dayne had her brought up from Starfall once they knew Lyanna was close to giving birth. Its the only reason I have for the Lyanna-Starfall connection. I don't know why Ned would send for someone from the hometown of somebody he was about to kill.

[–]salmonroll -3 points-2 points ago

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Why does it matter?!? Jon Snow is dead.

[–]glycyrrhizin 10 points11 points ago

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Oh, so you think he's dead, do you?

[–]awjeahboi 6 points7 points ago

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This could just be his rebirth as Azor Ahai.

[–]salmonroll 1 point2 points ago

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Who mends his wounds (eg Melisandre, Val, Cold Hands, the Crow warged through Bran), or will he pull some Wolverine restoration maneuvers?

[–]billlwoo 2 points3 points ago

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I really honestly regretfully hope he is dead. Introducing too many characters, had to start getting rid of some..

[–]KingoftheMoonF3 9 points10 points ago

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Maybe, but his death serves no purpose. Ned's death kicked off the War of Five Kings. Robb's death ended it. What happens if Jon dies? His arc gets left hanging, incomplete, with no more audience eyes on what happens at the Wall.

[–]frogmaQueen Sansa 1 point2 points ago

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You're exactly right, though I think you're forgetting about how significant the wall will be (if Jon were to die) -- it would still be pretty damn significant, and especially with Jon dying, there would be a totally different dynamic going on.

Without Jon though, like you said, who the fuck is gonna be guarding the Wall (IMO, the wall is the most significant thing in the series)? Stannis? Some other Night's Watchmen? I think there's a reason GRRM has focused so much on Jon and not much on his Brothers (except Sam, who's still alive). If Jon just sorta randomly dies like that, he'd be the first character to die like that. Even Joffrey played a pretty big role, and his death added to the plot pretty significantly. Jon's death wouldm't really mean much. We've already got Stannis on the wall -- unless he's dead too -- and we've got the other Night's Watchmen. The only other Night's Watchman with any real significance is Sam, and he's at the Citadel or whatever (and you know he's not dying, because his character arc hasn't concluded yet).

On top of that, we know Jon's arc hasn't concluded yet. The only other deaths that would be similar were basically Ned's and Ygritte's. Except Ned basically finished his arc (by being the one "good" guy in this whole game, and by dying for basically the same reason), and Ygritte (IMO) only existed so Jon could have a love interest earlier on -- kinda showing that he'd go against the Watch, and also showing that he's liable to get with girls (IMO, foreshadowing him getting with Dany or someone else later. I don't see any other reason to include Ygritte's character as a girl, who he fucks, when that character could've easily been a guy and served the same sort of purpose).

[–]ungoogleableBreathes Shadow Fire -1 points0 points ago

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Jon's death will kick off a new war between the Watch and the Wildlings. He was the only thing keeping them from ripping each other apart. Also, Jon and the Wildlings won't be taking out Ramsay, which would have benefited Stannis immensely.

That said, I do expect Jon will come back, but not for some time, precisely because his death does serve a purpose in the plot.

P.S. At the end of ADWD, Melisandre is on the Wall at Castle Black. Bran, Theon, and Asha are all in the north. Any number of other POV characters could make their way to the Wall in due course. Even besides that, nothing says we absolutely must have a POV on the Wall in the Watch. Like Lady Stoneheart, when Jon comes back, I don't think we'll get a POV from him ever again.

[–]gazer89The Knight of Ninestars 0 points1 point ago

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Like Lady Stoneheart, when Jon comes back, I don't think we'll get a POV from him ever again.

Adding to that, if Jon is resurrected I don't think we ought to be in his head anymore either.

[–]soigneusementHBIC 0 points1 point ago

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I have to agree with you, there have been way too many fakeouts in this series. Someone needs to stay dead, dammit!

[–]corduroyblackAfternoon Delight -1 points0 points ago

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Robb? Ned? Joffrey? Tywin?

[–]soigneusementHBIC 0 points1 point ago

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Vs Beric, Cat, Theon, Bran, Rickon, Davos, Tyrion, Arya, Robert Strong, Candor Clegane, possibly Loras, and Aegon (if you believe he is who he claims). And those are just the ones off of the top of my head. Fakeouts are fine every once in a while but George is overusing them.

[–]corduroyblackAfternoon Delight 0 points1 point ago

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Fair enough. I don't like the fakeouts as a literary device. I just don't agree that more characters have to actually die to make it a good story.

I have to assume that you downvoted me, as there was only one comment. May I ask why?

[–]soigneusementHBIC 1 point2 points ago

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I did not. I don't think that the story needs more deaths, but I think Jon's death was unnecessary if he's just going to be brought back to life and we all know it (which is why I hope he stays dead or at least warged into Ghost or something).

[–]cynest 0 points1 point ago

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Only one of which we've actually seen die. I'm not counting Beric since his resurrection bit was set up for quite awhile.

[–]soigneusementHBIC 0 points1 point ago

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Four of which we saw seemingly die (Arya, Clegane, Davos, Tyrion). I'm not differentiating between fakeouts and actual death because I don't think it makes a difference.

[–]winter-sun -1 points0 points ago

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I'm honestly and regretfully with you. I think death changes his character too much, be it through warging or a becoming a zombie. However with Alfie Allen mentioning the Luke Skywalker reveal coming up with regard to Jon Snow's parents I'm assuming he'll continue to feature as a main character and his parentage will be important.

[–]isall 2 points3 points ago

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Perhaps she arrived at Starfall for the first time with Ned

My god, Wylla is... Lyanna.

[–]OmNomNomBrainz 0 points1 point ago

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Not pretty enough?

[–]McLargepants 1 point2 points ago

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And why would Ned be broken up about his sister's death, if he instead smuggled her to Dorne.

[–]travio 28 points29 points ago

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Dani's dragons and barristan. Dragons like targs. Barristan was in the kings guard and had to write the tower of joy knights deaths in the white book. He might have sussed out what was going on there but has no evidence. Dragons liking Jon might give him that.

[–]Arthur_DayneSword of the Morning ☄[S] 8 points9 points ago

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Barristan was in the kings guard and had to write the tower of joy knights deaths in the white book. He might have sussed out what was going on there but has no evidence.

This is a good point I hadn't thought of. On the other hand, he wasn't the Commander at the time - it was Hightower, wasn't it? So it's possible he didn't know that Lyanna was pregnant or why the Kingsguard had been set to guard them.

Certainly, Jamie Lannister was in the Kingsguard and he's given no indication of knowing that Jon Snow is anything other than Ned Stark's bastard.

[–]travio 16 points17 points ago

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He wasn't the commander at the time but he became it after Hightower died in the Tower of Joy. He would have written their deaths in the book, so he would actually be thinking about it more.

Jamie had just killed the king, so he had other things on his mind at the time.

[–]doormatt26Son and Heir 9 points10 points ago

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But I thought it was already made clear that Barristan was warging into Gerold Hightower during the battle at the Tower of Joy. He was intentionally killed as Gerold so Barristan would become Lord Commander, but he obviously would have seen Lyanna and her child before he "died." But he's kept the secret because it would expose his powers and his plan to usurp the Kingsguard.

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–]1morenight1morecity 2 points3 points ago

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Someone answer this. I'm confused.

[–]elusivecreatureSword!-bearer 13 points14 points ago

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It's one of those joke things, except for the funny part.

[–]glycyrrhizin 1 point2 points ago

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Leyton Hightower is still alive and kicking at Hightower, by all accounts.

[–]doormatt26Son and Heir 0 points1 point ago

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Gerold, my mistake, thanks.

[–]Arthur_DayneSword of the Morning ☄[S] 1 point2 points ago

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Yes, this is a good point.

[–]bumblingbagel8Brotherhood Without Banners 1 point2 points ago

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There is no proof dragons like Targs, Brown Ben Plumm just said that. Besides, Quentyn probably has just as much Targaryen blood as Plumm and that didn't help him. I think Dany even thinks to herself the reason the dragons seemed to respect Ben was because Ben didn't show fear. That being said I feel like there might be a connection between dragons and Targs but I just don't see anyone figuring out who Jon is via dragons.

I just don't think Selmy knows, I feel like if he knew Dany had a living brother he would've brought it up.

[–]travio 0 points1 point ago

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Jon would be her nephew and I suspect that Barristan has thoughts, but no proof. As to the dragons, that is pure speculation either way.

[–]bumblingbagel8Brotherhood Without Banners 0 points1 point ago

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Ah, whoops good catch on the nephew. I could see him being suspicious about it.

[–]DoddlesThe Lightning Knight 8 points9 points ago

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Is Wylla still around or did she die or something? She could release the info in the same way Ashara could

[–]QuillandTankard 14 points15 points ago

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Edric Dayne says she's alive. Not only is she alive, people around Starfall seem to believe that she is Jon Snow's mother, which means she is Jon Snow's mother, wrongly believes herself to be Jon Snow's mother, or is knowingly deceiving those around her. She might not know the whole story, but she almost certainly has more first-hand knowledge than anyone else alive, with the possible exception of Howland Reed.

[–]sextangles 10 points11 points ago

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How exactly would someone believe themselves to be someones mother, outside of some crazy baby switching scenario?

[–]QuillandTankard 3 points4 points ago

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Sorry, I was being overly thorough. I guess it could work if Wylla gave birth to a child around the same time and place as Lyanna, and then Ned switched them or something, but there's no reason to think that's what happened.

[–]Arthur_DayneSword of the Morning ☄[S] 6 points7 points ago

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If Jon Snow is Rhaegar's son, it would make sense for her, sworn to the Daynes (who were and may still be Targaryen loyalists), to cover up Jon's identity.

[–]Quazifuji 2 points3 points ago

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I think in general Wylla's willingness to help is something to consider. If she's not the mother, then that means at some point Ned Stark came to her with a baby and asked he to pretend that the baby was his bastard son and she was its mother. Presumably, he had to tell her at least part of the real story for her to agree to this. He also has to have some reason to trust he with that information.

This is especially interesting when you combined it with Catelyn seeming to not know and Ned's mystery promise to Lyanna. Either Lyanna knew Wylla and told Ned to seek her out (if Ned promised to never tell anyone), or Ned had some reason to trust Wylla with the knowledge of Jon's parentage when he couldn't even trust Catelyn.

[–]corduroyblackAfternoon Delight 1 point2 points ago

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So where does Gerold "Darkstar" Dayne fit into all of this? Why did he attack Myrcella Baratheon? Does it have something to do with the Lannister history with both House Stark and House Targaryen? Does Darkstar know of Jon Snow's parentage (through his cousin Arthur Dayne? or someone else at Starfall?)

[–]grindcore4lyfe 0 points1 point ago

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No afaic he is in on the sand snake faction of dorne... Those wanting to provoke war with lannisters to avenge elia

[–]corduroyblackAfternoon Delight 0 points1 point ago

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I'm not so sure about this.

We never have any indication that he's in contact with the Sand Snakes. Further, the Sand Snakes have sworn loyalty to Doran. It doesn't make any sense for him to maim a child to provoke war with the Iron Throne. He's apparently a legendary knight. If he wanted to kill Myrcella, I'm thinking he would have just lopped her head clean off. No... his attack was intentional, but only to cause a flesh wound.

My theory is that Dayne was ordered to attack Myrcella by Doran. By this point, Doran already had learned of the plot to kill Trystane on the way to KL. Doran cherishes all children, so this order probably pained him. But he doesn't appear overtly upset in Arianne's final AFFC chapter.

How was Darkstar allowed to escape? He was the source to Doran about Arianne's plot. As Hotah said "Somebody talked." Who else could it have been?

[–]littledood0Geralt of Rivia 6 points7 points ago

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Not gonna lie, all I got from that is "Jon Snow's mother"

[–]polynomialsWhite Harbor Wolf 1 point2 points ago

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The only question about this I have is that she can't have just up and claimed this baby was hers. She must have been pregnant at some point, otherwise why would people who knew her believe the story? Unless they are all lying in which case they all know...I suppose if they are all still Targ loyalists (which they might be) that might explain it but it seems a bit sloppy. But on the other hand it was ostensibly Ned who killed Arthur Dayne, so wouldn't they be super pissed at trying to follow his little plan? Complicated. Maybe Ned really did knock her up but also Lyanna got knocked up by Rhaegar. And maybe Ned does have a bastard running around somewhere, but it's just not Jon Snow. Now that would be a twist.

[–]QuillandTankard 1 point2 points ago

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This constraint means that Wylla had probably never been to Starfall until brought there by Ned with Jon Snow. It could also mean that she had been in service there, but was gone for long enough to bear a child, but I think this is less likely. If she arrived a stranger, and Ned claimed she was the father of his bastard, why would anyone doubt him?

As to the reaction of the Dayne family, I think it is too easily assumed that they must also be in on any plan of Ned's. It seems more likely to me that they are the first noble family that Ned lied to about Jon Snow. Ned has kept the secret of Jon Snow's birth very, very close, and I don't think he would have told anyone that he didn't absolutely need to.

If we want to tie together all the loose threads about Ned, we can even guess that Wylla is the very fisherman's daughter who helped him cross the Bite in Godric Borrell's story. Maybe Ned impregnated her, or maybe not; either way, she could have rejoined Ned in the South, eventually accompanying him to the tower of joy where he found Lyanna.

The above is a bit of a stretch -- although, the only other character named Wylla we've met does come from the Bite . . .

[–]polynomialsWhite Harbor Wolf 0 points1 point ago

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But then what's the thing about that guy from the Kingswood Brotherhood telling Arya that he and Jon were milk brothers? Wouldn't that mean she must have been around Starfall for a while cause they both were nursed by Wylla? Cause isn't that guy way older than Jon?

[–]QuillandTankard 0 points1 point ago

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Edric Dayne, milk brother to Jon Snow, is a couple years younger than Jon Snow; Wylla has been at Starfall for his entire life, and as far as we know, she's still there.

[–]AdmiralMackbarAbove The Rest 1 point2 points ago

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Let's not forget we've heard Wylla smuggled Ned out of the Vale, past the Sisters to White Harbor. It's really not clear to me how or why she then traveled all the way to Starfall in the midst of a war.

[–]DoddlesThe Lightning Knight 7 points8 points ago

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What if Wylla... Is Rhaegar? That's why Robert defeated a super talented Rhaegar! It was actually a wet-nurse. All dressed up. No need to congratulate me lads, it was a joint effort getting all the dots in the right place. I'm just the one to join them all together.

[–]Arthur_DayneSword of the Morning ☄[S] 0 points1 point ago

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A good point, although I don't know if she could do more than simply rule out herself as the mother.

[–]DoddlesThe Lightning Knight 0 points1 point ago

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I suppose... She could at least rule out herself and Ashara which could lead to an educated guess from Jon or some other character

[–]Dwayne_J_MurderdenNeeds new windows 2 points3 points ago

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From the way Edric Dayne talks about her, it seems Wylla is still alive. She is apparently part of the conspiracy to cover-up Jon's true identity, but that doesn't mean that she knows the truth.

[–]frogmaQueen Sansa 0 points1 point ago

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Yeah, I think she's still alive, and she doesn't know the whole story (unless I'm missing something). If we assume L+R=J, Wylla could just know that she breastfed Jon, and not know much beyond that (and also that he looks like a Stark).

Why would she know anything beyond that? Is there anything in the books that would suggest she knows the whole story (maybe there is, and I'm just way wrong right now)?

[–]glycyrrhizin 0 points1 point ago

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That depends on whether she was random woman found at Starfall or, let's say, one of Lyanna's attendants who was left behind after agreeing to pretend to be Jon's mother.

[–]Arthur_DayneSword of the Morning ☄[S] 1 point2 points ago

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If she was Edric Dayne's wetnurse, I assume she was close to the Daynes. The question just is whether or not they would have trusted her with the truth.

[–]glycyrrhizin 0 points1 point ago

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You're assuming Daynes are in on the secret. And she'd still have to have been away for a time for the rest of the castle to believe the story.

[–]Arthur_DayneSword of the Morning ☄[S] 0 points1 point ago

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At a minimum they would know that Ned had brought Jon from somewhere else (and he'd just been at the Tower of Joy, so...). They also probably wouldn't have let him just nurse a baby with their heir's wetnurse (given that he'd just killed Ser Arthur) without knowing something about who that baby really was.

[–]glycyrrhizin 0 points1 point ago

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She wasn't their heir's wetnurse until said heir was born, which happened some years after Ned went back to Winterfell with Jon. It's far more likely she was Jon's wetnurse - someone had to take care of the baby immediately after it was born, what with Lyanna dying - and remained at Starfall, later becoming Edric's wetnurse.

[–]Arthur_DayneSword of the Morning ☄[S] 0 points1 point ago

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She wasn't their heir's wetnurse until said heir was born, which happened some years after Ned went back to Winterfell with Jon.

Right, but my point was more that she was considered a part of the Dayne household - so it wouldn't make sense that she would just nurse a baby that the Traitor Ned Stark (remember, he was still considered a traitor at the time, and had just killed Ser Arthur) gave her without some kind of explanation.

[–]glycyrrhizin 1 point2 points ago

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There's no reason to suppose she'd been considered a part of the Dayne household at all prior to Ned's arrival at ToJ, but you're doing an excellent job of pointing out why Wylla staying at Starfall during Robert's Rebellion makes no sense. She must have been gone from there, otherwise no one would have been fooled by the story, although she might have lived there before. And if it was possible to fool everyone else, the Daynes (except for Arthur of course, and possibly Ashara) didn't necessarily have to know, either.

[–]Quazifuji 0 points1 point ago

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Why would she agree to pretend to be the baby's mother without even knowing at least part of the truth? I have trouble imagining Ned Stark approaching some random handmaiden of the Daynes and going "this is my bastard child, and I need you to pretend to be its mother if necessary because its real mother is an important secret" and her just going "okay, sure, sounds good to me." Unless she was just following orders from the Daynes, but then that requires the same thing from them.

If Wylla's not the mother, then Ned had some reason to trust her and/or the Daynes with at least partial information about Jon's parentage (if nothing else, knowing that there's an important secret behind it, even if they don't know the secret, is fairly big), and, possibly more importantly, Wylla and/or the Daynes had to have some reason to help him. I can't imagine them helping him hide Jon's true parentage without knowing anything about it. Especially since the Daynes were likely Targ loyalists.

I guess one other possible reason is Wylla doing a favor for Ashara Dayne. Assuming neither Wylla nor Ashara Dayne is the parent but the stories about Ashara Dayne being in love with Ned are true (or at least, Wylla believes them to be true), Wylla might see helping Ned as a way of honoring Ashara.

[–]HobongerThe Thrice Hanged 0 points1 point ago

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Ned brought back the Sword of Mourning, and as a favor he asked the house on the complete opposite side of the continent to keep a secret for him. We don't know if people in Starfall actually believe that Wylla is Jon's mother, Edric Dayne only says they were milk brothers because they had the same wet nurse. He never said Wylla was Jon's mother.

[–]gorillapoop 7 points8 points ago

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Totally unrelated, but I just realized they if Lemore IS Dayne, we could potentially get a nice scene between her and Selmy.

She's a Septa, he's a knight. Maybe they both break their vows for each other. Maybe they even talk about Ned, and, by proxy, Jon.

[–]Arthur_DayneSword of the Morning ☄[S] 4 points5 points ago

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Oh shit, I just remembered that he was super into her. Good point.

[–]Khalku 0 points1 point ago

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Didn't Lemore go west with Griff? Or am I thinking of the wrong party?

[–]gorillapoop 0 points1 point ago

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She did. I for one am hoping that Dany and her crew will eventually make it west as well.

[–]Khalku 0 points1 point ago

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I think the interaction I'm most looking forward to is Aegon-Daenerys once they are both in Westeros.

[–]gorillapoop 1 point2 points ago

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I think Dany is going to lose her cool and try to shit all over him.

[–]MoridinReborn 2 points3 points ago

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1 Name. Howland Reed. He was the last one with Ned after the Tower of Joy.

[–]gazer89The Knight of Ninestars 2 points3 points ago

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Man, this thread has opened up so many cans of worms. We should do this more often :)

[–]yetanotheririshguy 1 point2 points ago

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Reckon options 1 and 2 are most likely. There is no way that he can let it go unanswered seeing as it has been such a mystery and recurring theme throughout. Personally I would prefer to find out via Bran as feel as if his story has not had enough of a real role in the books so far and having him be a part in unraveling some of the mysteries of Westeros would be fine with me

[–]Arthur_DayneSword of the Morning ☄[S] 2 points3 points ago

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There is no way that he can let it go unanswered seeing as it has been such a mystery and recurring theme throughout.

Is this true though? I feel like this would be a very Martinesque move to let this "question" go unanswered. It would also drive home the point that Jon Snow is a member of the Night's Watch, so his lineage is itself irrelevant.

[–]glycyrrhizin 5 points6 points ago

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It was promised. It shall be revealed. Whether Jon finds out is another question.

[–]Arthur_DayneSword of the Morning ☄[S] 2 points3 points ago

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Did Martin promise it in an interview or something?

[–]glycyrrhizin 4 points5 points ago

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I swear it's pasted on this subreddit at least once a week or so. Here you go.

[–]Arthur_DayneSword of the Morning ☄[S] 2 points3 points ago

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Thanks. I remember hearing about this but I never read the actual quote.

[–]FlakJackson 2 points3 points ago

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Considering that GRRM has apparently told Alfie Allen Jon Snow's parentage, I think there would be massive outrage if he never revealed it in the books.

[–]onthevergejoeBrother with an Other mother 1 point2 points ago

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Possible that the way Howland Reed saved Eddard Stark was by telling him that he (as a warg or greenseer) knew the truth about Lyanna? Thus preventing Stark from fighting the last line of defense?

Making one more person out there to tell the truth?

[–]ZachPruckowski 0 points1 point ago

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This doesn't fit, because Howland and Ned had 5 other companions who the Kingsguard killed. So that now means that 8 people from the Tower of Joy battle faked their deaths (9 with Ashara).

[–]onthevergejoeBrother with an Other mother 0 points1 point ago

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yeah, i guess i was just thinking that the others died on their way to the room, and they open the final door with just the one guard remaining and then magical reveal.

[–]ArstanNeckbeard 1 point2 points ago

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I just hope ZomboCat finds out before her Final Death. The Stoneheart needs to cry before she's put out of her misery.

[–]cenzo39House Dayne 1 point2 points ago

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My money is on Bran. It seems very GRRM-like to make us think that only Howland has all the answers for years, to swoop in and say "Nope, there is no way I would make it that obvious, who do you think I am?"

[–]polynomialsWhite Harbor Wolf 1 point2 points ago

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My theory is that Howland Reed will have prologue or epilogue and will confirm it in the most oblique way possible, then die with no one knowing.

I have also recently begun to think Barristan Selmy might say something because someone pointed out that every time he started to talk about Rhaegar the subject gets changed or he gets cut off. It seems clear that he would be privy to a lot of crazy shit that went down with the Targs. He keeps saying one day I will tell you, well that day will come. Maybe he will tell Dany and it will be Dany who reveals it to Jon and he won't really believe her.

[–]Billionaire_BotCan we be lovers if we cant flay friends 1 point2 points ago

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I've had this discussion before before. I think we'll find out Jon's parentage, but I don't think that him being the son of rhaegar will ever matter with respect to his claim for the iron throne. Even if he's a legitimate son of his, there's no way to confirm it in a way that the lords of westeros would believe it.

I think Jon's parentage will be instrumental the defeat of the others and balance to the realm (merging of ice and fire) but the throne will never be his

[–]Arthur_DayneSword of the Morning ☄[S] 2 points3 points ago

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I completely agree - I don't think there's a chance that he'll end up on the Iron Throne or making any real claim for it.

[–]awjeahboi 2 points3 points ago

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Where did this "Lemore is Ashara" thing come from? Ashara is dead. I'm pretty sure people will have identified her body. Not every character can come back in a shocking twist. Also, isn't Septa Lemore Tyene Sand's mother?

[–]Arthur_DayneSword of the Morning ☄[S] 3 points4 points ago

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There's a lot of conjecture as to who Lemore is. My thought is that Lemore is Ashara, only because Ashara's body was never found and it's not made clear as to why she would jump off the cliff.

Also, she was good friends with Elia Martell, so it would make sense that she would want to protect Aegon.

[–]awjeahboi 1 point2 points ago

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Ah, I didn't know the nature of her suicide, although the reason given was that she allegedly had a stillborn daughter.

Being friends with Elia would also explain her connection to Oberyn.

[–]Arthur_DayneSword of the Morning ☄[S] 5 points6 points ago

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From ASOS:

Ned looked wary. Maybe he was afraid that she was going to throw something at him. “Your lord father never spoke of her?” he said. “The Lady Ashara Dayne, of Starfall?”

“No. Did he know her?”

“Before Robert was king. She met your father and his brothers at Harrenhal, during the year of the false spring.”

“Oh.” Arya did not know what else to say. “Why did she jump in the sea, though?”

“Her heart was broken.”

Sansa would have sighed and shed a tear for true love, but Arya just thought it was stupid. She couldn’t say that to Ned, though, not about his own aunt. “Did someone break it?”

He hesitated. “Perhaps it’s not my place...”

“Tell me.”

He looked at her uncomfortably. “My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhal -”

“That’s not so. He loved my lady mother.”

“I’m sure he did, my lady, but -”

“She was the only one he loved.”

“He must have found that bastard under a cabbage leaf, then,” Gendry said behind them.

[–]Arthur_DayneSword of the Morning ☄[S] 4 points5 points ago

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And then later in ASOS:

“She killed herself, though,” said Arya uncertainly. “Ned says she jumped from a tower into the sea.”

“So she did,” Harwin admitted, as he led her back, “but that was for grief, I’d wager. She’d lost a brother, the Sword of the Morning.”

[–]glycyrrhizin 2 points3 points ago

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Where did this "Lemore is Ashara" thing come from? Ashara is dead. I'm pretty sure people will have identified her body. Not every character can come back in a shocking twist. Also, isn't Septa Lemore Tyene Sand's mother?

GRRM confirmed Ashara's body was never found.

Tyene Sand's mother lived in Westeros long enough to be visited by the Sand Snakes and Arianne, while Lemore seems to have been with Aegon and Griff for many years. Also, the coloring doesn't match - while genetics is still somehow complicated in Westeros, with a dark colored father like Oberyn Tyene's light hair and eyes would probably come from her mother, at least.

Barristan Selmy remembers Ashara as being dark haired. This is a new piece of information from ADWD, before it was assumed she was light-haired, since Daynes have been described as having similar coloring to the Targaryens. He also thinks she had a stillborn daughter.

Griff thinks of her as "Lady Lemore", though she's never addressed as such; therefore she's at least highborn. We know Griff had known Ashara, although we don't know how well.

There's only one thing that speaks against Lemore = Ashara Dayne theory, and it is that Tyrion never remarks on her eye color in his POV, while he makes a point of noticing Aegon's purple eyes. It's possible GRRM did it on purpose so it isn't too obvious, however.

[–]Quazifuji 1 point2 points ago

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There's only one thing that speaks against Lemore = Ashara Dayne theory, and it is that Tyrion never remarks on her eye color in his POV, while he makes a point of noticing Aegon's purple eyes. It's possible GRRM did it on purpose so it isn't too obvious, however.

That would be kind of sloppy to hide it by simply not mentioning it. Especially considering Tyrion is actively trying to discern her identity, he clearly would have noticed if she'd had purple eyes and pondered on it quite a bit, even if he didn't know Ashara had purple eyes so he couldn't determine he identity from that.

[–]domolm 0 points1 point ago

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Didn't Tyrion notice that she had stretch marks from a pregnancy? Obviously not all women that were once pregnant are Ashara Dayne but it still could be something.

[–]Quazifuji 0 points1 point ago

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Well, it doesn't rule against it, certainly, but I don't think that says enough to be a point in favor of the Ashara theory. All it says is she hasn't been a Septa her whole life, and it's already obvious that she's more than she claims to be regardless of what she actually is.

[–]glycyrrhizin 0 points1 point ago

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That would be kind of sloppy to hide it by simply not mentioning it.

Which is why it speaks against the theory.

[–]sith6six 0 points1 point ago

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If we are assuming it to be true i imagine we can rule out number three outright. I realize there is precedent for not revealing things the readers know to the characters, example gendry being king roberts bastard. If this ends up being true john has stark and targ blood, ice and fire. If this is true it probably plays into the multiple savior theories within the realm making jon way to important to not make it public knowledge to the rest of the characters.

[–]Arthur_DayneSword of the Morning ☄[S] 2 points3 points ago

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I think the entire "savior prophecy" storyline is a red herring, but that's an entire thread all unto itself ;-)

[–]jarmezzzOur blades are sharp! 0 points1 point ago

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Howland Reed is going to show up at some point with his birth certificate.

[–]petelyonsSer Frosten Peas 0 points1 point ago

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If the tinfoil hat theory of Ned warging into Ice or wherever turned out to be true, he could tell us himself.

[–]Absurd_Leaf -2 points-1 points ago

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No mention of Howland Reed? I feel like one of the sole purposes of eventually seeing him in the books would to be to shed some light on this very subject.

[–]ArstanNeckbeard 2 points3 points ago

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No mention of Howland Reed?

Except in the OP and the top four parent comments at least?