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This post on the front page today made me think of Japanese Weddings. This guy and the commenters would flip their shit if they were invited to a wedding here. (self.japan)
submitted 1 year ago by zorospride
Complaining about spending $80-100 to attend a wedding? Try a minimum of 15,000 Yen. I actually prefer Japanese style weddings after having my own here. Don't give us a gift we don't need. Give us money to pay for this extravagant party society expects us to put on so that we don't start out married life in debt.
[–]autobulb 14 points15 points16 points 1 year ago
Oh man it's funny when social conventions or traditions get in the way of the meaning and significance behind rituals.
Isn't the whole point of a public wedding reception to show to your family and close friends the bond you have for each other? Yet, it has evolved into this distorted thing over time where massive amounts of people are invited, people who couldn't give two shits about the couple, but are socially obligated to go to save face and then have to complain about having to spend money on a gift.
And because so many people are invited, the families of the couple and/or the couple themselves have to pay large amounts of money to put on this (now) meaningless display. So, instead of adjusting it to fit their own personal budget to entertain their families and real close friends, they ask the participants to pitch in for the costs. That makes no sense, the whole point is for the family to say, "hey guys, this awesome thing is happening and we would love for you to join us and celebrate with us!" But no, that is all thrown away when you ask the reluctant participants to donate money just to pay for the party itself. There are no winners except for the wedding planners and all the people involved in making the wedding happen.
Sorry, I just think that the way modern weddings are now, both Eastern and Western styles, is incredibly stupid and shallow and trying to argue about which one has the heavier burden for the guest proves my point even more.
[–]calico_cat[ニュージーランド] 5 points6 points7 points 1 year ago
That's why our wedding was on a beach with 25 people with a potluck afterwards. We asked for no gifts (we still got some, but since we had no registry they were small, handmade gifts). Best. Wedding. Ever.
[–]autobulb 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
Yeah mine would be similar. A party out in the woods or by a lake or something.
[–]zorospride[S] -1 points0 points1 point 1 year ago
Your wife is Japanese though and this wedding was in Japan?
I'm not sure why you are assuming that I'm male, heterosexual, and that my nonexistent wife is Japanese. That's quite a few assumptions... :P
The wedding was in New Zealand. I have attended Japanese weddings. A bit too formal - Kiwi style fits us much better.
[–]zorospride[S] 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago*
My bad. Just an assumption based on the typical demographics of the sub.
Edit: Regarding the formality of Japanese weddings, the second and third parties are always the best. I love it when I'm not invited to the first part (generally reserved for family, bosses, and close friends), but get an invite to the second party.
[–]calico_cat[ニュージーランド] 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago
The nijikai and sanjikai are always more fun. I wondered if someone only invited to the later parties would get a reduction in price for the wedding?
(btw: as Reddit's demographic is overwhelmingly American, male and 20something, I can understand why you would assume that. But just for the record, for a non-American, non-male reddit user outside that age range, it can get pretty annoying when I constantly fight off assumptions, especially when a cursory look at my comment history would say otherwise. I'm not trying to start anything, promise, just being friendly and letting you know. :)
[–]zorospride[S] 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago
I can imagine that would be frustrating, my apologies again.
For the 2nd and 3rd parties I've been to, it's a basic cover charge paid to the venue. The price depends on where the party is being held. In my experience it has been about ¥8000.
[–]the_taco_man[栃木県] -1 points0 points1 point 1 year ago
Not only are you ignorant, but you also stereotype. Next time ask
'Is your wife Japanese?'
Instead of simply assuming so based on a few vocal members of this sub. I'm beginning to like you less and less sir
[–]zorospride[S] -2 points-1 points0 points 1 year ago
Thankfully, I don't care.
[–]myfeetstink[something fun] 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago
Right on dude.
[–][deleted] 1 year ago
[–]zorospride[S] 6 points7 points8 points 1 year ago
As a gift. Physical gifts are frowned upon. 15,000 is the minimum that's socially acceptable. Some people might pay less, but it's kind of taboo to do so.
[–]wonkydonky[東京都] 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago
It depends on what you mean by "wedding", and "minimum", and "required".
There's typically 2 (or more) ceremonies in Japan, the actual wedding, a reception, and quite possible additional receptions.
Depending on your relation to the couple, how many ceremonies you're invited to, and how much money you have, the gift money value changes.
For example, a student being invited to only the last ceremony might get off with only 3,000 yen, but most "members of society" would have to pay about 8,000 yen. (They'd likely be told how much to bring.) I think if you're the father of the couple, you're going to have to be paying around 70,000 yen, or more.
I'm just talking about the actual main wedding.
[–]wonkydonky[東京都] 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
By the one's making the wedding? This seems more like a fee and less like a gift..
By the one's making the wedding? This seems more like a fee and less like a gift..
Same thing. The last wedding I attended, I think it was labelled as, "catering fee," and it was on the invitation, right next to the directions to the reception.
[–]zxcvbrian 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
its not that people are told on the invitation. its such a long standing tradition that everybody knows. it has to be an odd amount of money (so its not evenly split). The marrying couple pays for the entire wedding, which is ridiculously expensive. I've heard of a man's wedding kimono rental of over 2000 dollars. Women's can be up to 15000, for a half day rental, I've heard. Everybody knows the rules and expectations. friends usually are expected to pay 30k, family and managers pay 50k. co-workers are like 15k.
for gifts, most people travel by train, so to transport all the gifts by train would be rather difficult. money is just easier, but there is tradition behind it as well.
Most people travel by train? When will people learn that Tokyo =/= Japan. sigh
[–]zxcvbrian 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago
fair enough, but consider the amount of the population that lives in cities and the amount of people that don't own cars. you're right tokyo does not equal japan.
[–]the_taco_man[栃木県] 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago
I did consider that, but unlike you, rather than taking something i heard off of someone as fact, I actually looked it up.
While not as high as countries like Australia and the US (Which are notorious for high car ownership due to having a huge landmass and unreliable public transit) Japan is not exceptionally low. Just over half of all Japanese own cars. Sorry to make you look like an idiot on reddit (which isn't that bad of a thing I guess)
[–]ccae92 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
This is over 10 years ago but our wedding in Japan (fairly budget by their standards) was something like 11000yen/guest for food, and we spent at least 4000yen per on the hikidemono return gifts, so if we got back anything less than 15000yen/guest it would have been a loss. Not to mention dress rental, "production" fee, whatever we paid to the hotel for hosting it, a suite room rental for us that night (best hotel bathtub ever, I recall), balloon arches, etc. etc.
Having said that, a couple of my friends were supposed to go to two weddings that weekend and I told them to just come regardless if they were tapped out.
[–]Titibu[東京都] 5 points6 points7 points 1 year ago
That is extremely cheap for an invitation to the main reception (披露宴). The "real" minimum, for say a friend or an acquaintance, is more along double of that (there are various opinion as to whether 20000 JPY is OK or not, as it is an even number). You also have to bring only new bills.
You usually learn that the hard way, when you reach 25 y.o. and all your friends and family get married, and a good bunch of the salary goes into that.
[–]takatori 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
I just posted the same; the least I've ever paid was 30,000 Yen.
[–]parcivale 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
20,000 yen would not be appropriate since it is easily divisible by 2. You know, superstition.
30,000 is the least you can get away with without looking like a cheapskate if you're attended the ceremony and the main reception. That's what I paid for the wedding I last attended but that also involved shinkansen tickets and 3 nights at a hotel.
[–]delayclose 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago
I'm not sure I understand the "divisible by 2" rule. Is it just for the first digit?
Also, are these amounts per person or per family/couple?
[–]parcivale 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago
The amounts given as a wedding gift, whether you are one person or a family, should be odd numbers, as opposed to even numbers. Even numbers are easier to divide by 2 and are therefore unlucky as it would symobize the ease with which the couple might also divide some day. Odd numbers are harder to divide by two symbolizing the couple not ever separating.
[–]delayclose 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
Yes but 30,000 isn't an odd number, in the conventional sense at least. What I meant was, is it just the first digit that is looked at when determining odd-or-evenness in this case? The number of bills?
[–]parcivale 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
Yes, only the first digit needs to be an odd number. And they should be fresh, new bills to reflect the new marriage.
[–]tabakoinochi 17 points18 points19 points 1 year ago
I'm not sure if I understood correctly, but I think it was outrageous to the OP of the front page post because they were requesting 80-100 for the meal as well as a gift.
In Japan, the money IS the gift, so it's not at surprising.
[–]zorospride[S] -4 points-3 points-2 points 1 year ago
Sure, but if you added $80 to the price of the average wedding gift in the US it would still be less than what you would pay attending a Japanese wedding.
[–]tabakoinochi 18 points19 points20 points 1 year ago
Very true, but my point wasn't about total cost. It was that in Japan, giving money as the gift is the tradition that everyone knows.
The front page post was expecting a gift as well as dinner money, which isn't a tradition here. I know you're saying that it's more costly to go to a wedding in Japan, which I agree with, but I think the OP's point was that the "unspoken tradition" of dinner money was bullshit.
[–]Lostfiniel 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago*
I'm having trouble seeing how the Japanese weddings relate to the problem this man was facing. I'll admit that I don't know as much about Japanese weddings, but it seems like it would be more appropriate to relate the two if Japanese weddings required both a 150,000 yen gift and for the attendants to pay for their own dinner.
[–]zorospride[S] -3 points-2 points-1 points 1 year ago
It's more about the total cost to attend. The average person going to an American wedding buys a $50-100 gift and that's it. Going to a Japanese wedding you usually give a cash gift of 15,000 yen ($187) minimum.
[–]bicycly[東京都] 4 points5 points6 points 1 year ago
I ended up making a post on it.
I wonder if the wedding couple's family is related to some other country that has this kind of tradition like Japan.
[–]dogsviolatingcats 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
Yeah, I thought about commenting in that thread but figured I'd probably get downvoted. It was crazy to read how vehemently some people were against the whole idea.
[–]netweight[東京都] 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
The bride was mentioned to be Irish, and other Irish redditors said it was not an Irish custom.
[–]atgm[東京都] 5 points6 points7 points 1 year ago
I'd rather give cash than a gift since I know the cash will be used and appreciated... and like it the other way around, too. I'd rather have cash to pay for the wedding and honeymoon than have to go through a registry and ask for a bunch of stuff I probably already have/don't need.
Edit: I've been to a few weddings here and most people usually don't make a "profit" anyway. :x
I know we didn't make a profit, but the money made a HUGE difference in the out of pocket expense for our wedding.
[–]atgm[東京都] 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
I can imagine!
[–]Poofait[大阪府] 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
I always thought I should be paying a minimum of ¥30,000 to not look cheap. I'm dreading having to attend multiple weddings close together but luckily that hasn't happened yet. I'd be so poor!
I understand where the askreddit author is coming from.
I've not once attended in my life a wedding where we had to "pay" for our seat. So if someone invites me to a wedding here and then requires me to "pay" for my seat (and also require a separate gift) citing "traditions", I too will raise an eyebrow.
Now if ever I do get invited to a wedding in Japan and I see that it is tradition there to give money instead of gifts, I'd gladly attend and give that money without batting an eyelash.
(Btw, the bride in the askreddit thread was Irish and other Irish redditors did not see it as Irish tradition.)
[–]Tannerleaf[東京都] 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago
It's no so much a tradition in Japan, more like mandatory.
Realistically, the sum of the money given is supposed to cover a large amount of the cost of the ceremony and reception. You're not supposed to "profit" from the "gift" money. At the same time, you're supposed to balance things out so that wedding dresses (there are more than one!) don't look like they cost more than the food, as this looks selfish. The guests need to feel that their money has been spent considerately, one can lose a lot of face over this.
[–]ccae92 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago
I'm pretty sure we turned a small profit... :)
[–]zorospride[S] 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
You're lucky. My wife's boss said he and his wife made a small profit, but they are the only ones I've ever heard say that.
[–]Tannerleaf[東京都] 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points 1 year ago
What's funny is that most of the commenters would've given that amount anyway, as a gift, but can't fathom paying the same amount as a requirement.
[–]netweight[東京都] 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago
I believe it was just in the delivery of the message. If the couple had instead suggested that guests give money specifically as gifts instead of requiring everyone to pay for their seat, no one would probably complain.
Exactly. A gift is an unspoken requirement anyway. Here is why the gift giving tradition in the US needs to end. Most people (including my wife and I) are getting married at a later age today. When we got married we had two of everything a married couple would get as a gift at an American wedding. We needed to throw away and sell stuff, not get more crap. Just give us money so we don't end up in debt having to foot the entire bill for this party.
[–]potatogun 5 points6 points7 points 1 year ago
In the US it isn't uncommon now for people now to specifically have a registry with whichever home decor place and then say please no other physical gifts.
That's been common for a while now. However, if you're in your late 20s to mid 30s, as a couple you likely have all the home decor you need. There was absolutely nothing my wife and I needed as a wedding gift for our place. We already had two of everything.
Then tell your guests not to bring a gift. Why do you feel you even fucking deserve a gift just for having a wedding?
[–]worldsfirsanalrapist 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago
It's funny, I was thinking exactly this when I saw it. But if that's the case, it needed better explanation.
[–]Tannerleaf[東京都] 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago
Most of the one's my wife's been to recently seem to cost 30,000 JPY, this is in Tokyo though.
I always say 15,000 because as a couple my wife has always told me we are expected to pay 30,000 for the both of us.
[–]zaphod777[神奈川県] 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago*
I was thinking the same thing but my comment got buried. I prefer the Japanese style, why should people go into debt when they are just starting out?
I got married in Vegas with immediate family only. No one can get angry for not getting invited since no one did.
[–]wonkydonky[東京都] 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
What's standard in Japan isn't standard in the West, and what's acceptable here isn't what's acceptable there.
For example, in America, it would be worth not attending a wedding over a mandatory gift fee. This is not so in Japan, and I think most people would likely adjust to the traditions of the couple getting married.
[–]zorospride[S] 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago*
Well, that was kind of the point of the post. Comparing the social conventions of Japan vs America.
[–]KyotoGaijin[京都府] 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
Yeah, me too. I saw that while riding the bus this morning and chuckled to myself, "I'll bet everyone in /r/Japan is thinking, "How lucky! Only $80-100!"
But I really doubt that the parents could be Japanese. Japanese people may follow some of their own traditions overseas, but they wouldn't try to force them on others.
I would not attended a wedding if there was a mandatory fee. Ever.
[–]wonkydonky[東京都] 8 points9 points10 points 1 year ago
Then you won't attend any Japanese weddings.
Agree 100%. If u!can't afford a big wedding, have a small one
I'm guessing "Attend a Japanese Wedding" or "marry a Japanese person" are not on your bucket list then.
15,000 yen is a lot of a gift/donation/fee. I don't attend work parties much since I don't feel like 5,000 yen is worth it for food/booze.
I'm not made of money, have plenty of student loan debt, and other expenses. If someone can't comprehend that, tough shit.
[–]Titibu[東京都] 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago
As I said above, 15000 is a bit too cheap. You're looking into at least a 2-30000 donation. btw, you usually get a present at the end of the reception as a guest... Just to give you an idea on how well this is "mandatory", there was this CM a few months ago. She's complaining that it is her third wedding in the month, and she is paying a lot, so she needs to subscribe to revolving payment.
Heh, the presents aren't usually that useful, I mean, two people can only use so many tea cups. Although we do have a nice pair of crystal wine glasses now :-)
[–]myfeetstink[something fun] 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
towels are always useful.
[–]Titibu[東京都] 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
I did not say they were useful :)
I hear you. It's easier to adapt once you get out of the broke student or just graduated phase.
[–]the_taco_man[栃木県] 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
You are ignorant. I know at least two people who married japanese women and had no or small ceromonies. Some people can't afford big ceremonies so they don't. Asking your guests to pay because you throw a ceeemony outside of your budget is a dick move
You are a troll:) nice try
I'm not a troll. I know people who have elected to simply get their marriage papers signed at city hall and then have a small gathering of friends to celebrate. You are not only ignorant, but a moron. Japan is home to all kinds of people, not just the ultra-traditionalists that you apparently spend your time hanging around
In case you didn't notice, the point of the discussion was to compare "traditions" so of course that's what we would focus on. By the way, if you don't want to be classified as a troll, don't call some random person a moron, ignorant, and a dick for no good reason other than you feel like getting a rise out of them.
I cast you as ignorant becuase it was a fact. You were ignorant of the fact that some Japanese couples can get married without an extravagant ceremony. Why are people so offended by the word ignorant? It's not an offensive term, it simply means that you lack the specific knowledge of something. Everyone is ignorant of something. I, for example, am ignorant of baseball.
I called you a moron because you obviously failed to grasp the meaning of the word ignorant.
I never called you a dick, but you are certainly acting like one
I'm ignorant of a great many things, but what is expected at a TRADITIONAL Japanese wedding is not one of them. I've had my own and I've been to 9 of them in less than 2 years. That's a slightly larger sampling than your "at least 2 friends."
[–]the_taco_man[栃木県] 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago
I apologize. My writing must be too complicated because you are somehow still not grasping it. I'll try to simplify -
Yes, you have been to many traditional Japanese weddings. That's awesome champ! You stated that EVERY Japanese wedding is like this. I challenged that they weren't, and that SOME Japanese people get married differently. I wasn't challenging your view of a traditional marriage, and I still assume that that is in fact how most Japanese get married.
Don't they teach reading comprehension at school any more?
I never once said every. Check your own reading comprehension. That being said, winning Reddit arguments is obviously very important to you so I bow to your genius and submit.
[–]Dirtyrobotic[千葉県] 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
It's like when you arrive and give your name to the staff you have to hand over the gift in a special Goshugibukuro (envelope) that gets handed back minus the gift.
It is the start of your participation in blessing the couples marriage.
Only 15000 Yen?
I've never been to a wedding expecting less than 30,000 Yen.
[–]blumpkin[群馬県] -1 points0 points1 point 1 year ago
I don't get it. Why would you want to pay several hundred bucks to go to somebody else's wedding? I'd just say no thanks and stay home, I think.
You would go because you are expected to, and people will ask why you didn't go. It would be embarrassing not to attend.
[–]blumpkin[群馬県] 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
I dunno, I just don't really care that much what people think of me anymore. It seems like I'm always going to be treated like an outsider no matter how carefully I follow Japanese customs. In fact, my coworkers seem to be more comfortable around me when I break the rules. I switched to coolbiz way early this year, and my coworkers just laughed and said "ah, it must be because his country has different rules. Wacky foreign guy, changing his clothing based on the actual weather instead of some arbitrary date. Haha! To be so free!"
[–]Zen1[アメリカ] 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
They're waiting for the gaijin to do it because then they can follow and not be reprimanded. This also applies for eating omiyage everyone just received. They will wait for you to take the first bite.
[–]the_taco_man[栃木県] -2 points-1 points0 points 1 year ago
Embarrassing for them maybe. They are the ones that dropped three hundred dollars on a wedding.
[–]takatori 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago
We live in a society here! You hav to go to people's weddings if you don't want to be ostracized!
Frankly, if people ostracized me for not attending their needlessly overpriced wedding, I'd start to wonder why they were in my circle of friends in the first place
That's right! What do they see in you if you refuse to go to their weddings and buck cultural conventions? They may conversely start to think that you value money more than their friendship.
Well, if they value friendship more than money... why are they expecting me to pay such a large sum to attend their wedding? Shouldn't me just being there for their special day sans money be enough? You're point is it's own counterargument bud.
You're missing the point that this is the common, standard, de rigeur, expected, and accepted way that weddings work here:
They invite family, close friends, and co-workers
Everybody invited shows up unless a family member recently passed away
You bring 30,000 yen in a 1,500 yen fancy envelope and hand it to them at the door when entering.
They bow in return and thank you
Everyone is seated, and the couple have a costume change
Everybody eats about 10,000 yen of great food and gets drunk on about 10,0000 yen of beer, sake, and shochu apiece, and the couple have a costume change
Parents, bosses, and upperclassmen of the couple give speeches, and the couple have a costume change
The couple give a thank-you speech, and have a costume change
They couple thank you for coming, hand you a gift basket woth about 10,000 yen
You bow in return, congratulate them, and thank them for inviting you
On the train ride home, everyone in your carriage sees you carrying the gift bag with the hotel name and logo on it and feels sorry for you having to have had to go to yet another 30,000 yen wedding.
Not pictured: drunken hookup with the single girls from the couple's work that makes it all worth it.
[–]jaylink -2 points-1 points0 points 1 year ago
This guy and the commenters would flip their shit if they were invited to a wedding here.
This guy and the commenters would flip their shit if they were invited to a wedding here.
HAHAHA!!! That's exactly what I was thinking, too.
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