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Incest (brother/sister). Advice needed. (self.sex)

submitted ago by adelphos

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Ok, so this may not be the correct forum /r/sex but I need some input from people. Particularly looking for those with some experience either in professional capacity or (if comfortable personal).

I met a young girl (21) online a few days ago. She wanted a sexual relationship with an older guy (me). We chatted overnight, and she wants to push the boundaries sexually, particularly D/s, with her as the sub.

As we talked in detail she told me she had a sexual relationship with her brother. That it went on for 2 years, and ended when she was 16 and he moved out. She believes as an experience it was quite freeing.

Now, I don't want to label it - as I have no experience in the matter. But in my mind I see a direct correlation between her incestous relationship with her brother and her desire for older men and strong submission (being 'raped'. choked, beaten). She has had some issues with drugs and casual sex to date.

So what do I do? We may end up meeting soon? I tried googling for resources but all I got was paid for science papers. I want to understand more. And sort of get some input.

I don't know her at all, I want to talk to her before we go any further. She is an adult, and I also don't want to place my map of the world/thoughts on the matter over hers.

Serious advice would be very welcome.

{Edit, just found this, will have a read: http://www.sasian.org/guide/aguide_en.htm, but I am still wondering that she says she is ok with it all, if then she is, and it is}

{Edit 2, sorry should have been clearer, not looking for a relationship - more casual thing with connection}

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[–]Zergling_Supermodel 28 points29 points ago

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her desire for older men and strong submission (being 'raped'. choked, beaten).

That describes a lot of girls out there - only a really tiny portion of whom had incestuous experiences. You're forcing a link there.

She has had some issues with drugs and casual sex to date.

That is more worrying, as it indicates weak self-control (that's if she really had "issues" with it; a degree of experimentation is normal for young people - and that's not necessarily an "issue"). That's also probably a cause for the incest, and not a consequence.

Anyway, it's probably not going to be an easy ride - but I don't think it's a guaranteed disaster of a relationship. I'd go into it, slowly and very carefully, and be ready to bail out if it goes wrong. If you want a chiller relationship though, yeah maybe leave it there.

[–]hedonistPhilosopher 3 points4 points ago

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Exactly, why are we all getting all judgy about a bit of kink? That kind of stuff is quite common in "healthy" women but somehow its a "don't stick your dick in crazy" because she fooled around with her brother?

[–]Zergling_Supermodel 4 points5 points ago

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Yeah, admittedly there are other red flags (issues with casual sex and drugs), but still - I've had good relationships with girls who had more issues than that, so I wouldn't judge too quickly in this case.

[–]hedonistPhilosopher 4 points5 points ago

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Well, this if course is coming from a guy posting as hedonistPhilosopher, but I'm also not quite as willing to judge the promiscuity or drugs so fast either. Are we talking shooting up heroin and abusing benzos, or smoking weed and dropping acid? Are we talking random unprotected stranger sex, or healthy, boundary-expanding experimentation with multiple partners that just happens to be over a short period of time? Drugs and serial partners in a short period of time isn't necessarily a warning sign. Those are things that CAN indeed go in super destructive directions, but don't have to.

[–]Veeks 19 points20 points ago

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Meet her in a public, entirely non-sexual setting the first time or two to get to know her. Then make your judgement based on her stability from there.

[–]adelphos[S] 2 points3 points ago

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Yes, I want to talk to her about this. In person. I guess I also want to sow the seed. Even if it doesn't hit home straight away, then I think at least it's in her conciousness?

[–]Veeks 7 points8 points ago

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I don't know if it is necessarily to her advantage (or your own) to be like, "Hey - I think you might be fucked up. Think about it." (obviously you'd say it more nicely, but you know what I mean). If she seems stable, maybe there's no reason for this to be in her consciousness, and if she does seem to be traumatized by it, maybe it's best for you to just not get involved - it's not like you're her friend or family member.

Just my thoughts though - once you meet her, your own judgement will be the best guide :)

[–]Hirudo_Medicinalis 1 point2 points ago

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If you're meeting in a public, safe place (for both of you), you shouldn't have to worry about sowing a seed or making anyone concerned. Being a caring human is important, I agree, but don't get yourself laser-focused or all you'll see are connections. It's really hard, once you get an idea firmly planted, to not try to automatically connect what fits while ignoring other factors.

[–]1040Ez 7 points8 points ago

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There is no telling what the particulars were in that relationship. I can only say listen to your instincts.

[–]BipolarType1 2 points3 points ago

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Big red flags. Just not worth it even as an FWB. I'd run like hell.

If you simply feel that you must go forward, take it really slow. Really slow. My experience with unstable women is that they are always on their very best behavior at the beginning.

[–]MasterTibbet 1 point2 points ago

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Have you considered the possibility that she's telling you the truth, and that there wasn't anything abusive about her relationship with her brother?

It's true that most of the information about incest that's available deals with it in the context of abuse, but that doesn't mean we can assume that it must always be abusive. Incest is illegal in most jurisdictions, there's a strong taboo against it, and that means we'll probably never know how many people have had consensual incest or how it's affected them – they're probably not going to tell anyone about it.

This is not to say that you should ignore your feelings and do something you're not comfortable with. Ask yourself whether you'd feel the same way if she'd had sex with an older boy who wasn't related to her. Maybe go over her story again in your head, and substitute "brother" with "the neighbor's son" or something like that. If there's anything that raises a red flag even without the incest element, then you've probably got a good reason to be concerned.

EDIT: I also agreed with hedonistPhilosopher's comment – her past issues with "drugs and casual" sex may or may not be something to worry about, depending on what she was doing and how she was doing it.

[–]Catler 9 points10 points ago

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Dont stick your dick in crazy, man. I feel for the girl, but that sounds like drama you dont need.

[–]fixedzero 2 points3 points ago

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It's entirely possible that it was a positive sexual experience and not the 'cause' of anything. She was 14 when they started, not a child, and I think she'd probably be pretty offended if you accused her brother of 'abusing' her when it sounds like she was in a consensual sexual relationship.

[–]SirFireHydrant 5 points6 points ago

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Depending on how old the brother was, it's very possible (indeed, probable) that he took advantage of her.

[–]adelphos[S] 1 point2 points ago

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He was 18.

[–]SirFireHydrant 6 points7 points ago

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Then, virtually by definition, he took advantage of her. By law, such a relationship is an abusive one. Though you might have a hard, and ultimately fruitless time convincing her that her brother took advantage of and abused her.

In my opinion, you'd be better off not getting emotionally involved in such a woman. There's far too many psychological issues at play. She needs a therapist not a boyfriend.

[–]famfapper -1 points0 points ago

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Just because something is legally one thing doesn't mean it actually is that thing.

[–]chostings 4 points5 points ago

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you really think a FOURTEEN YEAR OLD GIRL has the ability to make a judgement call about having sex with her brother? christ.

[–]fixedzero 1 point2 points ago

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No need to yell. You're 14 at the beginning of highschool - I was certainly capable of making decisions for myself at that point in my life.

[–]chostings 4 points5 points ago

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No, you weren't. You thought you were. Because when I was 16 I couldn't believe how "stupid" I was when I was 14. And when I was 20 I couldn't believe how much I didn't know when I was 16. And the same when I was 23, and 25. Nobody is going to willingly admit having no fucking clue what they are doing. What you are, at that age, is completely open to peer pressure and societal views/norms. What did you do at 14 that you wouldn't have done if you hadn't been in certain company/your friends werent' doing it/the 10th graders didn't think was cool? Because I probably would have watched TV all day, picked my nose in public, jerked off until my dick bled, wore sweatpants indefinitely, wanted to be a professional baseball player, announced to the whole school that I loved being in the band. The list goes on. Did she even know what incest was? Or was she acting on one of the first times in her life she felt sexually attracted to something? There's a reason freshman in high school aren't in any positions other than Class President, and it isn't because of their decision making ability.

[–]kisarra 2 points3 points ago

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By your argument, people would never be capable of making rational decisions about anything, because they will always grow older, and their perspective on their actions will always be changing. You have to draw the line somewhere--does the fact that at 23 you regretted some of the things you did at 20 mean that you were capable of making an informed judgement call at the time? And while societal influence is definitely stronger at 14 than it is later in life, it isn't something that anyone ever manages to escape entirely, and how much someone has escaped from it depends far more on the individual's maturity level than on their age. If a 20 year old is fixated on impressing people and imitating Paris Hilton, is she more capable of making a judgement call than a 16 year old who isn't afraid to stand up to her peer group and treat sex seriously and thoughtfully?

Obviously we have no idea whether coercion was at play in this girl's incestuous relationship, but if it wasn't, then it seems that she made the best judgement call she could at the time, and if she doesn't regret it, we really have no right to call her a victim or tell her she didn't make the choice to have sex with her brother herself.

[–]chostings 1 point2 points ago

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Ok, lets take comments out of context.

When your 14 year old daughter has sex with your 18 year old son, please invite me over so I can hear you tell her that it was the best judgement call she could have made at the time. Also commend the son for helping her discover her sexuality, as she'd be much worse off imitating Paris Hilton in 4 years.

[–]kisarra 0 points1 point ago

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My point wasn't that incest is awesome or that all fourteen year olds need to be having tons of sex. I completely understand the squick factor of incest and concerns regarding very young people having sex before they might be ready for it. But having an emotional response to something doesn't mean I can't look at it more rationally. I simply wanted to show the logical conclusion of the argument you made, and that it's really not fair to victimize someone who doesn't feel like a victim or assume that there is no possible way the girl in the original post could have been acting autonomously.

[–]adelphos[S] 2 points3 points ago

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The difficulty here seems to be again that (and I'm assuming here) not having direct experience of this, we're having to think it through. And I believe that is the difficulty.

She appeared confident in what she wanted, and she also appeared very switched on - and did not act in a way which shouted 'abuse' in the way we've possibly read about or seen on TV.

The issue I have is whether I'm sticking my map of the world on to her's. If someone considers it exploration and not abuse, are they wrong?

The truth maybe less black and white than it first appears. The more I think about it, the more it's shades of grey. I believe it's abnormal, and has led to a particular kink in the road, this may prove to be damaging compared to what most of us would consider 'a healthy relationship'. But it may be perfectly ok for her.

For me, if I am given the opportunity, I'd like to talk it through with her more. Learn more, sans judgement, but also understand that her point of view is covered by it's own set of blinkers.

Not sure I'm making any sense here. Blah.

[–]kisarra 1 point2 points ago

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It's definitely a very messy and complicated issue. Personally, I find that I have a difficult time believing that someone could be involved in a situation like that without some sort of coercion being involved--that just by the nature of the girl's age and her position as the little sister, the brother held a position of power over her that could never be free of manipulation. But I recognize that I really don't know much about this particular situation. Like you, I'd be interested in actually talking to someone like the girl who had gone through this kind of experience and learn what it was like. What her relationship was like with her brother prior to them having sex, how it was initiated and by whom, how things changed afterwards, her reasoning for engaging in the relationship.

There's no way for us to know whether the girl was being honest with the OP (or herself) about how the experience affected her. However, I think it's much more respectful of the people involved, and certainly more interesting, to consider the possibility of her being truthful than to immediately dismiss her because it's easier for us to deal with her as a victim than to think about this foreign and complex issue.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. :)

[–]adelphos[S] 1 point2 points ago

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Yes, that's my point exactly. That her kink is about power (and older guys) - so of course she has been affected by it. And your victim point is also spot on.

Which leads me back to where we started. Is this zero sum? Is the issue binary. Sleep with her and counsel her (thereby being another abuser)? Or walk away (thereby labelling her a victim)?

I guess a lot depends on her.

[–]Cakeo 0 points1 point ago

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You underestimate 14 year olds, however, 14 is far too young for sex. At 14 you're half way through high school in Britain(Scotland?). Also, I don't think any body wanks until there dick bleeds, nor do I talk to my friends about how I'm so not doing that.

[–]Esotericas -1 points0 points ago

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Many girls lose their virginity at 14 and younger. Her brother could have been abusive... however, some guy she met at school that is only going out with her to get in her pants could also be abusive. The age & relationship to her of the male that takes her virginity does not prove whether or not the experience was an abusive one.

[–]Steve190 0 points1 point ago

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Why get in all this mess? Go with your instincts.

You don't want to regret getting in a mess; plus there are tons of women in your locality.

[–]Kaboose1442 0 points1 point ago

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I would say go into it with an open mind. Talk to her like you want and let her tell you want she wants to tell you. Incest is a big taboo but it doesn't mean someone is bat shit crazy or been abused. Maybe she was the one who insinuated it first to her brother? Who knows. But the rape and abuse fantasies aren't something to be scared of either. It's a fetish. If she was really sexually abused why would she want to relive that moment over and over again? I know I wouldn't. If you don't get turned on by that then tell her and try something else that both of y'all will like. I'm 20 and I mostly have had sex inside of a relationship except a few girls and I have experimented with drugs but I don't have a problem with either of the 2. If she used to be a tweaker you will know immediately. So I say keep your mind open when meeting her but be ready to run if she seems to need more help than you can provide. Just my .02

[–]tossmehard 0 points1 point ago

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in my mind I see a direct correlation between her incestous relationship with her brother and her desire for older men and strong submission (being 'raped'. choked, beaten).

Was her brother older than her/Did she have a relationship with her father?

Are her desires significantly different from the non-incestuous/non-abused female population?

She has had some issues with drugs and casual sex to date.

Define "Issues." There's a difference between addiction and liberalism.

Serious advice would be very welcome.

Trust your instincts, but not in the face of facts. Don't put your dick in crazy.

[–]Abomonog -3 points-2 points ago

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Get to know her before you do anything. She's definitely crazy, but that may not be as bad as you think. The thing with her brother is a bit off the wall, but is not unheard of. More have done it than we probably realize.

We chatted overnight, and she wants to push the boundaries sexually, particularly D/s, with her as the sub.

Now, I don't want to label it - as I have no experience in the matter. But in my mind I see a direct correlation between her incestous relationship with her brother and her desire for older men and strong submission (being 'raped'. choked, beaten).

I doubt it. That would indicate forced acts by a parent more than consensual sex with a similarly aged brother. Some people don't need a trigger to like these acts. In many cases it is just the way they turned out. But then again, there could have been other events involved.

What do you mean by "Drug Problem"? While there are certainly problematic drugs, there are a few that when used casually, can make life interesting. I've known a few girls over the years who like to get utterly zoned and get their freak on. That can be tons of fun if you're into that thing. That leads to the casual sex thing. What she likes to do with her body is her business. She only has a "problem with casual sex" if you are in the mind that a woman who has sex other than inside of a relationship is a slut. She likes sex, what is the problem?

I am no professional, but my current gf is very similar to your current subject (well, far, far, beyond her, actually). She is utterly sexually insane, but has proven to have one of the most golden hearts I have ever come across, and has on several occasions acted in the most noble of fashion in some very trying circumstances. You already know a lot about her and she seems alright so far. Learn more.

From here on this is nothing but experience talking:

What I think about your lady is that she has a sexual history that she is not telling you. She is not telling you not because she is ashamed of it (I doubt she is ashamed at all, actually), but because the details of it and her feelings about it would utterly blow you out of the water and alter some perspectives largely viewed as fundamental. If I am right about this, then she knows exactly what she wants and her entire sex life from even before her brother is finely calculated, whether she realizes she's doing it or not.

Never, ever, ask her about anything I just said. She'll tell you if she want to (just be prepared to sit down). I'm not going into any detail simply because I might be right, and if I am then I would be revealing something I have no rights to reveal.

Get to know her. The extreme sexual types are usually less of a problem than "normal" girls, actually. I think that your big issue is that she is likely to want to go in directions you are not so willing to go. She has tastes that are not for everyone, and they will expand as she gets older.

Do you want to go there?

For some incentive I'll give you a hint of my own GF's personality:

I can date any other woman I want, so long as I bring her home so my GF can have some of her. Not exactly your normal jealousy issues.

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[–]Haze04 -3 points-2 points ago

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TIL 21 is a young girl.

[–]OKImHere -5 points-4 points ago

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She's got all kinds of signals that she was molested as a child by her father- drug problem, incest, older guy kink, rape fantasies...

[–]MasterTibbet 3 points4 points ago

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Rape fantasies are very common.

[–]OKImHere 0 points1 point ago

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All of those things are very common. Put together, though, they signal another common thing- child molestation.