top 200 commentsshow all 210

[–]cherrymama 184 points185 points ago

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I spoke with a gentleman who did the same thing, and when it didn't work he preceded to enter in all 8 of his other credit/debit cards trying to make it work. Then he was mad at me because his computer did not come with anti-virus software preinstalled.

[–]kaljaenHA HA, INTERNET 100 points101 points ago

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Is it bad that when I read "all 8 of his other credit cards", I flinched?

[–]Bloqhead 49 points50 points ago

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The fact that he actually took the time to enter all 8 of them into some foreign popup baffles me. What an imbecile.

[–]boomb0xTechnological Janitor 33 points34 points ago

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I've supported 3 users who paid for rogue antivirus software, but what gets me about this is that the man HAD 8 different credit cards to use. Wow.

[–]phantom784Have you tried turning it off and on again? 18 points19 points ago

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There's people who have tons of credit cards because they're getting them for frequent flyer miles.

That said, I get the feeling that this man was not one of them.

[–]Bloqhead 9 points10 points ago

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I have awesome credit and I couldn't get 8 credit cards if I tried. I have 2 and that's enough for me.

[–]reconditecacheIt's magic! I ain't gotta explain shit. 28 points29 points ago

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You don't usually end up with 8 credit cards if you have awesome credit.

[–]Bloqhead 11 points12 points ago

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8 just sounds careless. I guess they would give that many credit cards to reckless people before they would ever give them to anyone else.

[–]Ichabod495 9 points10 points ago

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I've known people who had that many. They used different cards at different times to maximize rewards and never carried a debt on any of them. I don't know how well their system worked but it can be done responsibly.

[–]TenNinetythreeLOADHIGH all the things! 2 points3 points ago

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As someone who never had even 1 credit card until it was made unavoidable due to studying abroad (to pay the rent) and almost never uses the one she has now, this sounds incredibly alien to me.

[–]Ichabod495 3 points4 points ago

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If you pay it ff in full every month they really aren't that bad. Where did you study?

[–]RamonaLittle 6 points7 points ago

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Sure you can. People with awesome credit get offers of cash advances with 0% interest, and can use this for credit card arbitrage. They might also get cards for frequent flyer miles (as phantom784 said) or various points programs. And people who own more than one business might use a different card for each business, to track their finances.

Of course anyone doing any of the above is probably too smart to give their cc numbers to a virus.

[–]cherrymama 0 points1 point ago

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haha not even close to the flinching i was doing.

[–]Kancho_NinjaDefrag the Internets! 43 points44 points ago

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Then he was mad at me because his computer did not come with anti-virus software preinstalled.

I've heard this argument before. I counter it with - Your house didn't come with a free alarm system, did it? That's something you had to pay extra for, right?

Occasionally, someone will argue.

[–]bmeckel 17 points18 points ago

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For some reason I thought you said horse instead of house. Now I can't get the image of a horse anti theft system out of my head.

[–]Kancho_NinjaDefrag the Internets! 8 points9 points ago

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[–]itsableeder 5 points6 points ago

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Your house didn't come with a free alarm system, did it?

Just to play devil's advocate - my girlfriend just bought a new build house and it came with a pre-installed alarm system.

[–]Kancho_NinjaDefrag the Internets! 17 points18 points ago

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And it has 24/7 monitoring to let you know when your house has been broken into while on vacation? What about new technology? Does your alarm system update itself to prevent new attacks, like burglars that sneak in through the phone lines or mail themselves to your house?

;)

[–]DsyelxicBobI suck at computing 17 points18 points ago

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the thought of burglars mailing themselves into my house had me in stitches!

[–]gonzoed9 6 points7 points ago

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But did it come with service? I think not.

[–]Kancho_NinjaDefrag the Internets! 6 points7 points ago

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And to play right back, I'd like to point out that the cost of the alarm system was factored into the price of the house ;)

[–]itsableeder 2 points3 points ago

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It does, actually. The house is on a managed estate.

[–]gonzoed9 0 points1 point ago

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touché

[–]cherrymama 2 points3 points ago

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oh yes, with the anti virus as well as the word processing software.

[–]dereddib 6 points7 points ago

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IMHO the idea of pre-installing anti virus software on freshly sold computers is not as far-fetched. Considering the cost of such software (zero or quite low compared to the computer's price, apart from the effort of installation).

[–]Kancho_NinjaDefrag the Internets! 9 points10 points ago

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Sir, I understand you are upset and I understand your logic. Many new homes these days do come with an alarm system built-in by the manufacturer. However, they also require a paid monthly monitoring service to work. Your antivirus has been out of date for 550 days...

[–]illu45 4 points5 points ago

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This may be true for home alarms, but there's lots of free AV software out there. It does need to be updated, however.

[–]wrincewindMAYOR OF THE INTERNET 1 point2 points ago

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users? update something!?

/smirk

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–]lojicError 418: I'm a teapot 0 points1 point ago

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They are in Windows 8. (Or at least the antiviral components in it.)

[–]Syn7axError 6 points7 points ago

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It's from an economic perspective. You're not allowed to package anti-virus with a computer, because that gives that company an unfair advantage.

[–]tigonometryREBOOT! 6 points7 points ago

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Tell that to McAfee

[–]jothcra 12 points13 points ago

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McAfee hardly counts as antivirus software.

[–]tigonometryREBOOT! 2 points3 points ago

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That's true, but I work for a company that uses Dells and five times out of five McAfee is part of their bloatware.

[–]jothcra 2 points3 points ago

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You have my deepest and most sincere sympathies.

[–]tigonometryREBOOT! 1 point2 points ago

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The machines themselves aren't bad and I've got an image I can slap them with right out of the box that takes out a lot of the hassle so it's not really that bad.

[–]klutch2Have you restarted yet? 2 points3 points ago

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But they could at least provide a setup option like they do in Europe for Windows 7 and browsers. By offering several different options during setup and you can pick what you want but this time for anti-virus.

[–]Syn7axError 2 points3 points ago

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I think the solution would be in individual stores. When you buy the computer, the store gives you a choice of anti-virus.

[–]klutch2Have you restarted yet? 3 points4 points ago

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Then the anti-virus companies would attempt to partner with the stores so they can only sell their anti-virus. Like Best Buy appears to promote Kaspersky above all. CompUSA does CA. It has to be an unbiased decision and the customer has to choose whether to pay $50 or get a free anti-virus like MSE.

[–]Syn7axError 2 points3 points ago

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Yes, but it's not prepackaged.

Stores support certain brands pretty often. At the very least, the customer chooses which store to go to. There's probably some obscure laws about this sort of thing, but I don't know them, so I can't say I can say much more.

[–]dereddib 1 point2 points ago

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Yes. It's like new cars would be sold without air filters, because that would give an unfair advantage to a specific manufacturer. Your car will break sooner or later if you put none in, but many people don't know that.

[–]yellowdart654 0 points1 point ago

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by preinstalling it, the person doing the installing could be considered to 'warranty' the effectiveness of the solution. What if the user then got a virus, due to no fault of the installer, and yet the user relied on the installer (to their detriment), and now are in a pickle.

If instead the seller says here is a computer... go make sure you know how to use it, and secure it and what not. I really clears up the who is responsible for what aspect.

[–]darkangelle 10 points11 points ago

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Holy fuck...

[–]cherrymama 0 points1 point ago

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hahah

[–]NearHi[S] 32 points33 points ago

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Hahahaha! That's hilarious. I would have legit had a hard time laughing in his face.

[–]tigonometryREBOOT! 1 point2 points ago

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Clearly you're not a good candidate for a support position, then.

[–]NearHi[S] 4 points5 points ago

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Clearly, I'm a person that thinks that level of ignorance is inexcusable.

[–]tigonometryREBOOT! 1 point2 points ago

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And I have to beg your pardon; I've got to learn to stop browsing Reddit in a foul mood; it causes me to say useless and snippy things.

... and, also, I completely agree that kind of ignorance shouldn't be.

[–]cherrymama 0 points1 point ago

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oh definitely.

[–]randfur 8 points9 points ago

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Wince.

[–]cherrymama 0 points1 point ago

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yeah i was like.... you might want to call your banks....

[–]kaotik4266 1 point2 points ago

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Why would anyone have or need eight credit cards?! This is a legit question.

[–]cherrymama 0 points1 point ago

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lol i guess he was old and rich?

[–]HoochCow 111 points112 points ago

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I used to work for a major bank dealing with debit card fraud, you think you have it bad imagine being on my end when I got part 3 of this call.

Customer: "I purchased an anti-virus for my computer and I never got the program, so I'd like to report fraud and get my money back."

Me: "Oh? Well tell me about the purchase."

Customer: "Well I was browsing the internet and then all of a sudden this huge pop up came up it was full screen I couldn't close it and it said your computer has a virus and you need to pay us $80.00 to get this anti-virus to remove it, well I bought it, and I got this anti-virus download and installed it and its not showing up on my computer and I still have the virus apparently because the pop up won't go away."

Me: "Wait you did what repeats what they did back to them Is that correct?"

Customer: "Yes that's exactly what I did."

Me: "Do you realize you just paid a pop-up for a virus?"

Customer: "I what?"

Me: "Yea, I mean did you ever purchase an anti-virus program before this pop up happened?"

Customer: "No..."

Me: "So if you didn't have an anti-virus then how did your non-existent anti-virus detect a virus? It's obviously a scam to get your card info and then you get a virus in return which can do god only knows what damage."

Customer: "Damnit, I feel stupid, well this is fraud I want to file a claim and get my money back."

Me: "I'm sorry but you willingly gave them your card number, this is not fraud, it's a merchant dispute and to get your money back you have to take it up with the merchant you gave your card to. The only thing I can do is cancel your card and send you a new one with a new number for a $5 replacement fee, in order to ensure the people you GAVE your card to can't use it fraudulently, I can also recommend you get a real anti-virus program or have your computer checked out by a professional technician so that you can get whatever you downloaded removed so it doesn't steal any more of your info or cause harm to your computer, also I do apologize but since were not related to any anti-virus sellers or computer shops I can't recommend any to you."

Customer: Instant rage and swearing at me for not knowing what fraud is disregarding the fact that I'm a trained fraud analyst

Me: Restates what fraud is and how this isn't fraud and suggest they get a new card

Customer: demands supervisor

Supervisor: tells them the same shit I just told them.

So yea, thanks IT guys. You helped fuel my alcoholism by sending them to me.

I jest though, I respect anyone who can do your job. Anyone with the will to learn can learn the knowledge you use to do your job, but it takes so much more to actually perform the job and deal with the users.

[–]Tmmrn 47 points48 points ago

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"I'm sorry but you willingly gave them your card number, this is not fraud, it's a merchant dispute and to get your money back you have to take it up with the merchant you gave your card to.

Wait, if you pay them because they convinced you with a lie like "your computer has a virus and you need to pay us $80.00 to get this anti-virus to remove it" then you cannot get your money back without the consent of the people who just lied to you?

[–]HoochCow 44 points45 points ago

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Yep, that's how it works. To put it simply there are two basic types of problems when it comes to shit you would want to file a claim on.

  1. Fraud - When a transaction is made on your account without your consent or knowledge by a person(s) or company you never gave your card to.

  2. Merchant Dispute - When you have willingly provided your card number to a merchant in exchange for a product or service and you had a problem with the product or service, such as but not limited to wrong item, wrong service, failed delivery of product or service, faulty product or service, and scams.

There is also familiar fraud but it's basically fraud committed by a friend or family member and the bank will require you press charges against them before they will accept your claim.

[–]JohnnyCanuck 30 points31 points ago

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fraud
|frɔd| |frɑd|
noun
wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain : he was convicted of fraud | prosecutions for social security frauds.
• a person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities : mediums exposed as tricksters and frauds.

I can see how someone might be confused though.

[–]redwall_hp 38 points39 points ago

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Typical financial industry. Define fraud as something narrower than the dictionary definition...

[–]AwkwardTurtle 12 points13 points ago

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I don't think that's unreasonable.

In any field, the language used is more specific than the general usage of the same words.

[–]kazegami 2 points3 points ago

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Yeah, honestly, they could call it "fraud-A" and "fraud-B" and people would still bitch about it.

[–]HoochCow 4 points5 points ago

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While yes personally I do think scams that get you to willingly provide your information are fraud based upon the definition of fraud the banks don't see it that way and there really isn't anything the consumer can do about it, in order to fix this it would require some manner of government hand to step in and say that their practice of defining scams that get you to willingly provide your info as a merchant dispute is not acceptable and they must classify it as fraud if someone goes through with the scam and calls in to file a claim,

edit: however I am against this manner of interference from the hand of government because if you are stupid enough to enter your info then you are stupid enough to lose your money with little to no hope of getting it back, its nothing at all like if your pocket gets picked, or if someone mugs you, or skims your card's data, that's fraud you had no control over. If you're too ignorant to alt-tab or ctr-alt-delete an obvious full screen pop up scam you can always turn off the computer and boot it back up, and if the pop up is still there take your computer to a qualified technician for virus removal.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points ago

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Ho ho ho everyone who knows less than me is ignorant and/or stupid and deserves everything they get, right guys? Fuck that attitude.

One day this might happen to you, only outside of your technical knowledge, and I hope you remember this attitude. You'd never fall for a full screen pop up I'm sure.

One day you might have a virus which your antivirus hasn't detected (remember, it's not possible to say your computer is free of viruses) which is silent. It has hooked into your Firefox, and when you go to buy something on Amazon (example), it has rewritten the TCP stream to send your payment to themselves instead of Amazon.

The session is encrypted (the injection occurs after Firefox decrypts the valid SSL session), the page is identical, the page source is unchanged, and you lose your money.

I've seen this virus in the wild. If you get it, just remember that it's not fraud, and you're stupid an ignorant so it's your own fault and you shouldn't expect your money back.

[–]Fuyuri 7 points8 points ago

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Ah, but from what I understand from my skim reading, you haven't willingly provided the virus with your details. I believe that would fit somewhere more along the lines of theft, but I ain't no legal expert.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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Neither did the case OP is talking about. They willingly provided details to something claiming to be something else, they never willingly gave them to a virus.

I see I'm being downvoted already. I hate this subreddit.

[–]CaeliAria 12 points13 points ago

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You're being downvoted mostly for rudeness. Try being civil to people even when you disagree with them. It helps.

[–]Fuyuri 0 points1 point ago

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Ah, but you see, OP's case was a matter of common sense. What you've mentioned however, is not up to the victim.

[–]lolol42 0 points1 point ago

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It's because the people still put in their payment to PAYPAL, not something else. If it isn't detected, how do you know it is going to be redirected?

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points ago

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It's not paypal though. Even it it appears to be, it's not. Is that fraud? What about people being phoned from companies claiming to be Microsoft? I know a pensioner who phoned me in tears when he paid one of those. I hope the bank didn't tell him it was his own fault when I directed him there. It is, by definition, fraud.

By the way, the redirection is done inside your browser, so you could monitor it with wireshark or similar. Obviously you wouldn't know at first, just like in this story the customer didn't know anything was amiss until the popup came back.

[–]spacemanspiff30 2 points3 points ago

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While the means used were fraudulent, that is not what is at issue here. The point of view from the bank is that you willingly gave the card number. Your average credit card won't refund the money, but Amex and other higher end card companies might just to keep your business.

The companies don't give a fuck about you, they just wasn't your money. They spend a fortune drawing up those contacts and you can't go to court about it. You're stuck with mandatory binding arbitration, and those firms find for the one paying for it something like 85% of the time because they want repeat business, and the courts uphold this. You have to get the laws on arbitration changed if you want something fair done about this type of thing.

[–]djstawes 2 points3 points ago

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I'm not so sure that counts as willingly providing your information.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points ago

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So at what technical level is it no longer your fault that you willingly provided your details to a con? Just because you can spot a pop up a mile off doesn't mean others can. Just because I can discern something is a phishing site or has a fake SSL doesn't mean you can. And the virus I'm talking about above would catch out most technical people.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

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In your example, the consumer believes he's sending his information to Amazon. In the example provided by the bank guy, the consumer believes he's sending his money to .. well, some scheister, I think Windows 7 Antivirus 2012 is the name of one of the viruses doing this?

To put it in real world analogies: The bank would see the SSL redirect attack as you buying from a vendor, and, as you're handing the vendor cash, someone running between the two of you, jacking your cash, and running away with it - presumably faster than you can run. The OP example, however, would be like if you willingly paid an out of breath street vendor for a "real" Rolex watch. They don't feel obligated to help you in that second scenario.

The meaner way to say it is that the banks enforce a stupidity penalty. I did in-home computer repair for months, and nearly all of my clients who had the scareware virii knew better than to actually buy it. Most of them acted like you'd have to some kind of nimrod to give money to something preventing you from using your computer - and they're right. The clients I had who HAD bought it - well, they weren't the brightest bulbs in the apple tree. Plus, an SSL redirect attack like the one you're talking about would be a severe blow to e-commerce if it became widespread, and nobody wants to shake consumer confidence. Widespread consumer confidence vs. one person's dumb $60-80 transaction? Yeah.

[–]djstawes 1 point2 points ago

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So at what technical level is it no longer your fault that you willingly provided your details to a con?

Honestly? At the point you tell the bank that that's what you did.

[–]beenman500 2 points3 points ago

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whilst this sounds like a similar situation, it isn't. You see in your situation there is no merchant, in the way that there is with the OP's situation.

Also, I thought credit card companies didn't pay their debtors for like a month, because what company doesn't trust visa/mastercard. So in the case of a dispute if the purchaser has been scammed they can get their money back.

Finally, yes I agree with your point of view

[–]HoochCow 1 point2 points ago

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Actually if a virus of that nature steals your money it is fraud, not a merchant dispute, so I would be in the clear as I wasn't a dumbass who happily gave an obvious criminal my card number.

[–]Section225 7 points8 points ago

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Sounds like an open and shut case to win your money back in a civil court claim, but as far as fraud and criminal charges? Nah. Funny how everyone know's the expert's job better than them when they're involved suddenly...

[–]spacemanspiff30 0 points1 point ago

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Nope. Mandatory binding arbitration, and I think we already all know who the winner will be on that one

[–]NibblyPig 5 points6 points ago

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In criminal law, a fraud is an intentional deception made for personal gain or to damage another individual; the related adjective is fraudulent.

I think you're wrong.

I would say a merchant dispute is you advertised anti virus software, I bought it, and it didn't work. Fraud would be, you have a virus and the only way to get rid of it would be to buy my software.

Assuming you could prove what appeared on your screen, if the wording was that you have a virus, you'd have no trouble in court proving that there was no way their software could detect this, and they were deliberately deceiving you into purchasing something you didn't need. The fact that it didn't work even when they did purchase it is another thing entirely.

[–]HoochCow 1 point2 points ago

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While yes in the sense of the actual definition of fraud you would be correct. The thing is I'm defining it as the bank defined it, so I'm not wrong in how fraud and merchant disputes are defined they were, I just had to live with their definition, I was bottom of the chain, I had no say in policy.

[–]yuubi 1 point2 points ago

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You don't have to act here as if you believe that the lies you're paid to tell are true, though. I'm not seriously considering the possibility that one could run a fraudulent anti-virus company merchant whose idiot customers always try to escape their obligations, get marks to hand over their cards, and actually avoid being charged back.

[–]HoochCow 0 points1 point ago

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Trust me on this man, if a bank can get out of returning your money to you as a result of you being a victim of fraud on your account they will.

[–]crocodile7 1 point2 points ago

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There's something extremely phishy about this narrow definition of "fraud". What if you willingly provide information to a "merchant" under impression that you're providing it to someone else?

[–]HoochCow 0 points1 point ago

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Willingly provided info falls into a merchant dispute category, thus making it hard if not impossible to get your money back in a claim through the bank. And yes I do agree the narrow definition of fraud is not the real definition Its the one the bank uses to define it. I had no say in that matter I was bottom of the food chain there.

[–]MrDOSTechnomancer, +5 to RTFM checks 1 point2 points ago

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And I used to calm people in this situation down by telling them their credit card provider would be able to get them a refund... sorry man :P

[–]HoochCow 1 point2 points ago

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Well it depends on the card provider. Every bank and every card provider will have a different set of rules, while the one I worked for didn't give two shits, another might.

[–]LuxNocte 0 points1 point ago

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Just to tack on here:

This is the difference between a debit card and a credit card. A credit card will refund your money at the drop of a hat.

[–]HoochCow 1 point2 points ago

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Yea, well that call center I was in also did credit card fraud, I know from friends who worked on that side that they used the same definition of fraud and merchant dispute as debit card side of things. So they still would have been fucked.

[–]silentdon 0 points1 point ago

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So does that mean that the customer would have to wait until they notice strange unsolicited charges showed up on their credit card to file a fraud claim?

[–]HoochCow 0 points1 point ago

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Yes. If your trouble starts with a merchant dispute and then totally unrelated things start popping up that are obviously fraud THEN you can file a claim and get your money back for those (Unless the post-claim investigation proves them to be legitimately related to the merchant dispute)

[–]PootenRumble 0 points1 point ago

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I thought you had typed "family fraud" and immediately imagined a game show.

[–]HoochCow 0 points1 point ago

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Oh god that's great. The objective who can steal the rich uncles debit card and spend the most money before getting caught.

[–]Draffut 0 points1 point ago

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Wait, so an Illegal virus manufacturer is considered a merchant and banks honor transactions done with criminals?

Cool.

[–]nstern2The stupid, it burns! 1 point2 points ago

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I'm not so sure they are Illegal though. They sell an, albeit, shitty product where you are just as fucked regardless of if you pay for it.

I see this situation kinda similar to buying mcaffe, or norton and expecting it to remove a virus you have on your PC. Would you call your bank/credit card company and expect them to refund you?

Unless they use your card to make other purchases, then fuck em.

[–]Draffut 1 point2 points ago

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When they write the virus that gets installed on your pc maliciously, and then charge you to get rid of it, its what i like to call "HostageWare" and then most of the time nothing happens and you really arnt purchasing a product, you are being phished for your credit information.

Totally the idiots fault, but everyone makes mistakes.

[–]RamonaLittle 0 points1 point ago

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Cool until the FTC catches up with you. (I remember reading a really excellent article about this company and settlement, but can't find it now. Anyone have a link?)

[–]electriophileNo, I will not look for your husband's porn stash 0 points1 point ago

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cough Cyberdefender cough

[–]groglisterineI can computer good -1 points0 points ago

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What I really hate about this, is that stupid Judge Judy episode where she got all pissy at an eBay seller for 'defrauding' a buyer, by selling the buyer two pictures of an iPhone for $400. She ruled in favour of the buyer despite the product description clearly stating that the buyer would only receive the paper pictures.

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–]groglisterineI can computer good -1 points0 points ago

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I hadn't thought of it that way. Good old American television!

[–]HoochCow 1 point2 points ago

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I agree. If you're stupid enough to buy that when its clearly documented and stated that you only get a picture then you should be up shit creek without a paddle.

[–]petermdodgeMy Code's Compiling 2 points3 points ago

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You want to instigate a chargeback for "service not as described" in this case.

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points ago

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Customer: Instant rage and swearing at me for not knowing what fraud is disregarding the fact that I'm a trained fraud analyst

I know this pain. I know it all too well.

[–]HoochCow 5 points6 points ago

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Many bottles of The Kraken fell before me in glorious battle as a result of this pain.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points ago

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Alas for me good sir, it was the Morgan's spice... infact I think that's what this mornings hangover and large pot of coffee are trying to combat at the moment.

[–]HoochCow 2 points3 points ago

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Oh Morgan, yea, you need to drink the Kraken 14 more proof than Morgan and as black as a glass of coke.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

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I do have a bottle of it... somewhere in my cupboard, but it's not my favourite if I'm honest.

Mount Gay is good... if you've tried that?

[–]HoochCow 0 points1 point ago

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I have not. The local ABC store is pretty sad in its variety.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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This I disprove of. Try and get some, it is the tits.

[–]bulletbillx 0 points1 point ago

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Morgan black cask. 100 proof. Great stuff.

[–]raskolnik 4 points5 points ago

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I have serious doubts about this, at least in the US. You can do a charge back even if you "willingly" gave the company your card info, such as when you order something and they never send it (which is basically what the above comment is referring to).

[–]archlich 2 points3 points ago

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Which the op referred to as a merchant dispute.

[–]beenman500 5 points6 points ago

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but one can still get the money back. So the op should have said "Sir, you have a merchant dispute not a fraud, sorry about the technicalities. What I can do for you is refund the money because you were sold a faulty product, let me just hand you over to the person who can help you", not the, you are being an idiot response that he gave. Though the customer didn't help by being rude

[–]raskolnik 1 point2 points ago

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Right, but the bank doesn't just tell you to go fuck yourself if you ask to do a chargeback.

[–]HoochCow 0 points1 point ago

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Well a charge back is something not handled by the department I was in, not to mention charge backs can in some cases make problem solving with the merchant worse.

[–]RedDaggerx 2 points3 points ago

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I still don't get how some people think that the person you phoned up is going to be incompetent, and the supervisor is the person you need. They wouldn't be there if they were incompetent.

They know what they're doing, you don't.

[–]Suburban_Shaman 4 points5 points ago

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FALSE: Years of working in large corporate IT type offices informs me that if anyone sounds like they are reading from a script they probably don't know jack shit. Neither does their supervisor. Try a different department or 3 levels up.

[–]RedDaggerx 0 points1 point ago

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Well the script know more than the customer. Kind of.

[–]bruestle2 1 point2 points ago

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Depends on the customer, but usually, yes.

[–]mistralol 5 points6 points ago

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Well the banks do have the choice not to actually deal with these people in the first place.

If they didn't actually deal with them then there would not be a way for them to get their money ....

[–]ctesibius 2 points3 points ago

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Of course it's fraud. Fraud has a legal definition, and if the customer were ever lucky enough to get the perpetrator in to court, the court would find that this met the definition.

A "trained fraud analyst" is not a lawyer. You're going by the rules that your company can usually get away with, not by the legal definition.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points ago

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You might be a fraud analyst, but you're using a very loose definition of fraud, no doubt handed down by your supervisor. Fraud is misrepresentation or lying to convince someone to give you something. This is similar to social engineering, which is usually fraud.

So yes, this is fraud. Maybe instead of being pompous with someone already upset and telling them it's not fraud full stop, you could be more honest and say something like:

"I'm sorry, but we only consider if a transaction itself is fraudulent, ie. If the payer is claiming to be you but isn't. We don't offer protection against transactions where your details were consentually obtained in a fraudulent manner. I understand this can be horrible for you, but hopefully we'll cancel the card before they try to use it"

[–]spacemanspiff30 5 points6 points ago

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Corporate policy and scripts. He/she didn't have a choice if he/she wanted to keep their job, but was just explaining the banks position.

[–]HoochCow 0 points1 point ago

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LOL yea, I've had this same exact thing stated to me by plenty of others so far since the original comment, and yea scams do fall into the realm of fraud by the real definition of fraud. But you know banks. I have to use THEIR definition, otherwise I would have been in shit with my employer for lying to customers.

[–]TheRain -1 points0 points ago

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Customer: Instant rage and swearing at me for not knowing what fraud is disregarding the fact that I'm a trained fraud analyst

Look out, we got a badass trained fraud analyst over here. Given that you were doing dick-all on your end for someone who was obviously in a spot of trouble, I can't blame him for swearing.

[–]HoochCow 0 points1 point ago

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Hey, nothing I could do even if I gave enough shits to want to do something.

[–]katsuya_kaibaOh God How Did This Get Here? 16 points17 points ago

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HA! Reminds me of my mother. Years back, she came to my work mid shift complaining about a pop up saying she had a virus. I told her to wait till I got home in three hours for me to come look at it.

Cue three hours, I get home and she tells me she has it handled, she bought the antivirus Windows told her to get. I went to look at her comp and the 'antivirus' was named like Antivirus 2010. I told her she had a piece of Malware and she insisted it was a Antivirus program because when she called them, they insisted it was a 'Good, wonderful program.'

She fought with me over a hour, repeating "Are you sure it's a bad program?" over and over as I removed the damned thing and made her call her credit card company to reverse the charge.

[–]ronin1066 2 points3 points ago

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just show here the google results of how it's a scam.

[–]andrewms 3 points4 points ago

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That never convinces them. I know all too well.

[–]katsuya_kaibaOh God How Did This Get Here? 2 points3 points ago

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He's right. I showed her the google page after the search and she went "Well....are you sure it's malware?"

[–]Ryan7x 66 points67 points ago

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I think I speak for all of us when I say,

ಠ_ಠ

[–]DivineRage 8 points9 points ago

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It's missing the tears running down the cheeks though.

[–]LogicalAce 8 points9 points ago

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ಥ_ಥ

Thats better

[–]DivineRage 2 points3 points ago

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Euh, yes... Yes it is. ಠ_ಠ

[–]redwall_hp 2 points3 points ago

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Allow me.

ಠ_ಠಠ_ಠಠ_ಠಠ_ಠಠ_ಠಠ_ಠ

[–]yuri53122Cable pulling slave 9 points10 points ago

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one of my clients did that.... he called me up asking about a virus. I said that i would drive over and that i would be there in 4 hours. In that time, not only did he pay, but also made it worse

[–]TattycakesJust stick it in there 1 point2 points ago

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Continue...

[–]yuri53122Cable pulling slave 10 points11 points ago

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After begging him to spend a few hundred bucks on a new computer (and being denied) I cleaned and reinstalled XP. Keeping in mind it's a first gen P4 with RDRAM. While I'm delivering the computer and setting it up, he asks the question we all get, "Can you make it faster?" It was 2011, and it would be cheaper to buy a new computer than make the old one faster. He moved to Texas shortly after, which means I have one less client

[–]plasteredmaster 4 points5 points ago

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surely not a huge loss...

[–]spongeloafWhy do they think we'll do it for free? 8 points9 points ago

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For my own faith in humanity, I sincerely hope you're making that up.

[–]NearHi[S] 9 points10 points ago

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I wish I was. I'm not. Not at all.

[–]EriksterHTTP 202 Job Accepted 7 points8 points ago

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It happens every damn day.

[–]NearHi[S] 4 points5 points ago

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And that's the sad truth.

[–]tomkandypsexec \\* rd /s /q c:\windows 2 points3 points ago

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Why do you imagine these programs exist? Some people are naive enough to fall for them.

[–]spongeloafWhy do they think we'll do it for free? 2 points3 points ago

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I know damn well people are stupid enough to fall for them, I'm just weeping for humanity. If their computer told them to jump off a bridge would they do it?

[–]ThereIsAThingForThat 4 points5 points ago

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Are you implying they would read what it said?

[–]jschulter 0 points1 point ago

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If they thought they had to to get back to playing Farmville, then yes, they would read what it said and follow precise directions on which bridge to jump off. Then when it didn't work (assuming they survived), they ask the IT guy whether it was because they didn't stick the entry.

[–]JimMarch 6 points7 points ago

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"You sent your credit card data to the Ukrainian Mafia."

[–][deleted] 11 points12 points ago

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Dear God

[–]bobmagoo 10 points11 points ago

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A guy I used to worked for bought a copy of "Skype Gold" from a similar type popup, this stuff gets pretty creative.

[–]pitman"It doesn't make sense that it's working" 22 points23 points ago

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I knew a guy who bought some "Reddit gold", they are getting pretty creative. :p

[–]NiceGuysFinishLast 4 points5 points ago

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I used to work with a guy who thought the Nigerian lady who couldn't speak english really loved him, and was going to move from Nigeria for him. I told him she'd ask him for money, and he said "No, she has gold coins she's going to sell!", and two days later told me that she had, indeed asked for a small amount to cover the transport of the coins, or some bullshit. He even considered sending it. I had no idea people are ACTUALLY that stupid, but I guess that's the only reason the scammers keep doing it.

[–]ANeilan 2 points3 points ago

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you'd be surprised how stupid some people can be....

[–]Marzhall 0 points1 point ago

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s/stupid/desperate

Some people have very sad lives.

[–]ANeilan 0 points1 point ago

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yeah.

[–]Runazeeri 0 points1 point ago

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Hmmm Time to take up scamming to pay off my student loan?

[–]scarcely_industrious 7 points8 points ago

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People should need a license to operate a computer.

[–]wickedplayer494An error has occurred and Windows has been shut down 0 points1 point ago

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There was a 6 level system posted somewhere a few days ago. CBA to find it...

[–]scarcely_industrious 0 points1 point ago

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:)

[–]JaTochNietDan 16 points17 points ago

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[–]Bucky_Ohare"Indian Name" would be Compensates with Sarcasm. 9 points10 points ago

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That gif should end about 1/3 the way through... the rest is just macabre. Why would he burn his own computer? The stupid doesn't reside there...

[–]efstajasMake Your Own Tag! 7 points8 points ago

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"Hi Tech Support... I just burned down my PC. What should I do?"

[–]plasteredmaster 8 points9 points ago

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is it still burning? in that case you should put out the fire

[–]ToriborExpert button pusher and password resetter 6 points7 points ago

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[–]MrPopinjay 3 points4 points ago

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I thought when he leaned in would have been a nice place to end.

[–]Bucky_Ohare"Indian Name" would be Compensates with Sarcasm. 4 points5 points ago

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Indeed, that look right before the blank happy face should've been enough.

[–]NoTroop 5 points6 points ago

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[–]Bucky_Ohare"Indian Name" would be Compensates with Sarcasm. 0 points1 point ago

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Sweet! I didn't think anyone would actually take a moment to sit down an do that. Much obliged.

[–]NoTroop 0 points1 point ago

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[–]JaTochNietDan 2 points3 points ago

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Hearing that someone, in this day and age, when everyone in the world is always telling you to be careful with your credit card details on the computer, goes on a computer and puts their card details into the first thing that pops up, which was confirmed to be a virus by technical support.

I can only take so much stupidity before my brain explodes and I have to burn everything with fire.

[–]log1kTHING RED 2 points3 points ago

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Same thing happened to me. A guy from high school messaged me last year. I'll just copy paste it.

Guy:

u smart on comps?

Me:

Yes sir

Guy:

plase help me\

igot a virus

im infected]

i bought a pogram last week and its not even letting me use it]]\

Me:

what program?

Guy:

like spyware protection 11 or somethng]

it forced me to buy it

now its fucked up again and i cant do anything\

Me:

The virus forced you to buy it?

Guy:

yeah pretty much

100 dollars on creditcard

it fixed the problem\

but now its back, its asking for a registration key which i have, but its not working\

Me:

Well, if the virus is telling you to buy something, I wouldn't buy it

It's either another virus, or just some way to get your money/credit card information

is there a website you went to to buy it?

Guy:

no it just constantly kept poping up on my screen

that i was infected and i needed to purhase this program to clean it

Me:

So, I'm assuming someone has your credit card info now

As for the virus, there are plenty of free online tools that will scan your computer for you, I'll see if I can find some

Guy:

its not even letting me access the internet now tho

im on my dads comp right now\


I probably should have emphasised the whole "HOLY SHIT CANCEL YOUR CREDIT CARD NOW!" ... I hope he understood the severity of that I doubt he understands he just gave some guy his CC info.

[–]ThanatosOfOne 4 points5 points ago

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This will get buried but here goes...

Most of out customers are medical offices. I had a doctor that decided that my job was beneath him and he could do his own work. This is a 90 workstation 8 server environment. He called us one day to tell us that he didn't like the antivirus solution we had chosen (computer associates corporate edition) and he had found something that found over 400 viruses on his office computer and cleaned them. He purchased it for $39 and it must be MUCH better than the stuff we chose. WinAntiVirus 2007 .... yeah... he hit one of the popups that shows you all of the BS viruses you have and if you will just pay $$$ they will get them clean. The phone call later that day when he figured out he had been scammed was fucking awesome though. Same dude swapped ram in his nurses workstation while the fucking system was still on. One fried motherboard and two fried dimms.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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To be fair, here, he shouldn't have been able to get that popup to begin with.

[–]ThanatosOfOne 0 points1 point ago

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Medical Office is the key here. Popup blockers had to be turned off for the e-prescribe RX writer to function (print dialog box is a popup), as well as the requirement that we HAD to use IE6. To this day the site still doesn't work properly with IE7,8,or 9 (you cannot do more than four RX's at a time), and will not function AT ALL in any other browser(IE tab for FF works marginally but does strange stuff.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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Seems to be like if that's the case, then the computers in question should not have access to outside Internet.

[–]ThanatosOfOne 0 points1 point ago

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the eprescribe is an outside connection as are several other business required sites. Also doctors are notorious for wanting full admin accounts. I don't like it but they are the ones that pay the bills so we can't exactly say no. The other side of that is that with the exception of that one incident we have very few issues.

[–]bruestle2 0 points1 point ago

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creates massive list of security issues

..with the exception of that one incident, we have very few issues.

ಠ_ಠ

[–]ThanatosOfOne 0 points1 point ago

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I can only do what they allow me to do :(

[–]NearHi[S] 0 points1 point ago

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That's awesome. I would have had a hard time not walking into his office and just smiling, like this

[–]mad87645 3 points4 points ago

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Mother of a 30 ft tall rabbit orgy.

[–]Epistaxis 1 point2 points ago

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Theoretically, would you have been punished in some way if you hadn't told Customer to cancel the credit card? Or would it just have resulted in money being separated from a stupid person?

[–]TheBeardofWin 1 point2 points ago

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Sadly I've come across many people that have fallen for this, a vast majority of them being elderly people that honestly didn't know any better. It's infuriating to see people getting taken advantage of.

[–]Themehmeh 1 point2 points ago

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psh are you kidding? a good 1/3 of my customers pay for it.

[–]dghughes 1 point2 points ago

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Years ago fax spam which preceded Internet spam you would see at offices mostly it was baffling but then one day I read somewhere 1% of it actually worked people actually believed it.

Consider that 1% over millions of faxes sent and a spammer could make money.

[–]KaavianInternet Tech Support Monkey 1 point2 points ago

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A former tech flunkie for Dell tech support (while they still had call centers in the USA). As a rep working in their software support department, I can tell you THIS HAPPENS ALL THE TIME. There was a rather popular one that we had printed instructions out for the removal process, what programs can be downloaded from where. Tinyurl addresses to tools. And on several occasions I overheard techs urging people to call their bank or credit card companies.

[–]absolutezero1287that's not your porn? 1 point2 points ago

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You'd think that people would be wary about providing credit card information. This isn't an issue with computer literacy its a complete lack of common sense.

[–]IT_Derp 1 point2 points ago

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To be totally honest, I'm not suprised people fall for it.

The majority of "real" anti-virus employ the same tactics to get you to pay.

[–]PKLKickballer 1 point2 points ago

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Sigh... I had to have this conversation with my wife. After she cancelled the card, someone actually called her trying to collect.

[–]BobCox 1 point2 points ago

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Just lie and say you never gave the info but they hacked your computer and stole it.

See Jury Nullification for details

[–]DanishPorkRoast 0 points1 point ago

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Sounds like something my dad would do.

[–]efstajasMake Your Own Tag! 0 points1 point ago

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You really laughed? I couldn't laugh about this. What the hell, how can one be so dumb?

[–]bogartnumberone 0 points1 point ago

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For the sake of my own dwindling sanity, please tell me that this wasn't the same guy as the one in the previous post.

[–]NearHi[S] 0 points1 point ago

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Oh god no! I would have quit and then went to his house and slapped him so hard he wouldn't have felt it until his dying day.

[–]proudcanadianeh 0 points1 point ago

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I have had too many customers actually pay for this already. It doesn't even surprise me anymore.

So far, only one of the customers got his bank accounts hit. They took 10k.

[–]ToriborExpert button pusher and password resetter 0 points1 point ago

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I've ran into someone doing the exact same thing. She had a 120 dollar charge on her card, and decided she would call about it later but then got 4 more $50 charges on it through the evening. In her defense the program looked really legitimate, but it was on her work computer so I have no idea what the hell she thought she was doing.

[–]yumenohikari 0 points1 point ago

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Worked for an anti-spyware vendor for a few months, just before Vista hit the shelf, when Zlob in all its infinite iterations was king. I must have heard this story at least once a week. It's amazing just how gullible some people can be.

[–]DarthMalice 0 points1 point ago

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Back when I ran one of those computer repair shops this was actually quite a common problem. I can recall at least 9 different customers that actually paid the rogue virus. I know it's hard to accept that common sense isn't so common, but it's unfortunately the truth.

[–]crestehI Blow My Own Catridge -2 points-1 points ago

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I almost say she deserved it for being so stupid.